082: On Getting Out of Bed; Or, on Living with Mental Anguish (with Alan Noble)

For many people, sorrow, despair, anxiety, and mental illness are everyday experiences. And while we have tremendous advancements in therapy and psychiatry, the burden of living often comes down to some mundane choices, like "Should I still bother to get out of bed?"

Dr. Alan Noble joins us to talk about life with mental anguish and his book, On Getting Out of Bed: The Burden and Gift of Living. We talk about faith and hope in the goodness of life amid the struggles and pain.

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Transcript

[00:00:15] Geoff: For the majority of people, sorrow, despair, anxiety, and mental illness are everyday experiences. And while we have tremendous advancements in therapy and psychiatry, the burden of living still comes down to some mundane choices. Like, should I still bother to get out of bed? That's what we're talking about today here on the embodied faith podcast with Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw, where we are seeking a neuroscience informed spiritual formation produced by grassroots Christianity, which is growing faith for everyday people. Today we have on as a guest, uh, Dr. Alan Noble, although on your bio, it says Dr. O. Alan Noble. So I don't know if we need to get the whole story there behind the, Oh, but he is the associate professor of English at Oklahoma Baptist university. He is the advisor to Christ and pop culture, as well as the and campaign and the author of several books, one of which we're using as our kind of, uh, diving board into the topic of getting out of bed. And that is getting out of bed, the burden and gift of living. Thanks so much for being on with us today. 

[00:01:27] Alan Noble: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. 

[00:01:29] Geoff: Yeah. Well, so much of a normal life as you just jump right in, in your book is consists of like suffering of pain and then mental anguish, as well as mental illness, um, And practically speaking, you kind of boil it down to this question. Like, well, should I actually bother getting out of bed today? Um, what made you feel like you needed or wanted to, I'm guessing more of a, more of a need, like what made you need to write this kind of book? 

[00:01:59] Alan Noble: Yeah, so, um, a couple years ago, um, there were a number of fairly high profile, um, suicides in the, uh, evangelical community and I was going through my own mental health struggles and it just struck me that that this is something that a lot of people wrestle with and that we don't have really good responses to. 

I mean we do we do have mental health resources and that's great and there is a growing awareness of mental illness and The focus on treating it, and those are really positive things, but there's this, um, it seemed to, it seemed to me this fundamental philosophical question, why live? Why get out of bed? 

That everybody needs to answer, and, um, we're not. not publicly talking about it enough. And so I wrote an essay, um, called On Living that forms the basis of this book. And, um, I published that and, um, got a lot of really positive feedback. And it, it just said to me, um, you know, this is a topic that people are really resonating with that, that, that people want. 

And so I wrote the book.

[00:03:17] Geoff: Go ahead. Sit. 

[00:03:18] Cyd: Yeah, no, I was just going to say, um, you know, you talk about in the book that there is this shift where there's more openness to mental illness, especially in the church. Right. And then there's more openness to medication that can often be necessary to support people in mental illness. Um, but you talk about how that's, that's a good thing, but that relying on it too much can actually be a little bit of an issue. 

Can you say a little bit more about your sort of concern about too much reliance on mental health diagnoses? 

[00:03:47] Alan Noble: Yeah. So, you know, a mental health diagnoses diagnosis can be a great comfort because you get to label something, but it can also distance you from the experience itself and it can become a kind of a kind of crutch. Uh, it can become a kind of a label that you put on yourself rather than putting on your experience. 

And, um, It's possible, and I write about this in the book, it's possible to fall in love with your own suffering. Which is not something that we like to, to talk about often, but I think, you know, if, um, if you've spent time on TikTok, and I hope you haven't, um, or other, other, other platforms, like you'll see that there are these sub communities where, where people, um, feed off of their, uh, struggles, where they feed off of their, um, disorders, and it becomes a kind of perverse, uh, identity formation around, around their, uh, mental illness. 

And, um, I think that's, that's a, that's a real pro, uh, real possibility, a real, a real danger, um, that we have in the modern world, where we can become, we can shape our identities around these, Things that, you know, objectively are negative, they're harmful, they're destructive, they're disordered. Um, and so, uh, I think that's, that's one danger. 

I think another danger is that when you get a diagnosis, uh, we, we tend to think in very medical terms. And so we We feel like if I can diagnose it, then I can fix it. Then there's step by step procedures to addressing it. Sometimes there are, but sometimes those step by step procedures just ameliorate the problem. 

They make it less, but they don't make it go away. There aren't very many magical cures to disorders, to mental illness. Some people get great relief from medication, but a lot of people don't. And, um, that's, so, that's reality. And so I think sometimes when we get a diagnosis, it can give us this false assurance that, that now we've got clear answers when really it's just the beginning of a long journey. 

[00:06:09] Geoff: Hmm. I think, 

[00:06:11] Cyd: Yeah, I really like what you said about the, you know, that when you receive a diagnosis, you can use that label on yourself, right? Your whole identity rather than on the experience of the illness. Um, so that just stood out to me. So I just wanted to highlight that for a second. I feel like that's a really helpful distinction. 

Um, Yeah. Go ahead, Geoff. Sorry. I 

[00:06:32] Geoff: well, I think like we're all grateful. Right. So we have this whole podcast is about how neuroscience psychology can help inform our spiritual formation. Right. So we're very grateful for all the insights that we're receiving from that. Yeah. However, uh, and you talk about this and I've been wondering about this quite a bit too is like, sometimes I think, especially for us, like evangelicals, we swing from one thing all the way to another thing without really changing like our mode of being. 

And so on the one hand, it's like, well, we can have like a pseudo spirituality by having like a doctrine and knowing the Bible really well. And then that doesn't like transform is longterm, right? That just kind of like covers over whatever character issues, whatever tragedies that are kind of living in us. 

You know, this Paul talks about the reign of sin, right? That doesn't mean I'm the cause of all these sins, but I have been affected by sin. Right. Uh, but then I think we can switch to the other side and be like, well, Oh, now I have Like a label for, you know, I have depression, I have ADHD. I have like, and then we say, well, that is now the thing. 

And if I can know about that and learn about that, that'll kind of fix everything. And it's just like, that too is helpful. Scripts knowing scripture is helpful. Good doctrine is helpful. So none of those things are bad. Right. But that isn't really getting at these like deeper kind of questions. And you kind of talk about how like psychiatry isn't going to help you or, um, you know, Isn't going to give you the why to keep on living. 

It might help you have a better how, like it might give us better means and tools. Uh, but it doesn't really give us that. Why? Uh, so that's, I love how you kind of bring that up. So, so then for you on your journey, uh, and I like your, but I just want to say this for, um, You know, people who might pick up his book is, it's not really a memoir. 

Uh, so I just don't want people to feel like, Oh, I'm going to get like the deep, you know, inside of, of, you know, Dr. Noble's like life. So you do talk about your personal experiences and the experience of others. It's more of a, for those who are literary people, it's more in the personal essay, kind of like you're talking. 

Personally about like a general larger concept. So it's not just a memoir. So I just wanted people to know that, but, but you do talk about your struggles, but when you cut, you kind of circle around multiple kind of meanings, uh, or reasons for living, can you just kind of offer like, what, you know, what are some of them, like what helped you or those that you know, like get out of bed regularly? 

[00:08:49] Alan Noble: So the most foundational and important, uh, reason to keep living is that we were created and we are sustained by a loving God who knows us personally, and, um, that means our existence is fundamentally, uh, good and beautiful and, um, worth. delighting in even when we don't feel it. And that's part of the, uh, that's at the core of this message is this idea that our feelings can deceive us, that we can feel like life is miserable and life is uh, uh, dreadful, that life is torturous, uh, that there is no joy and pleasure, that our being, our existence is not fundamentally good, but objectively it is good. 

And we know that because we were created and we are sustained moment by moment by this God who doesn't have to create us. He didn't have to create us, He doesn't have to sustain us, but He chooses to because He loves us. It's an act of love. It's a continual act of love. So that's the cornerstone, um, there's a secondary reason, and that is that we have the opportunity to testify to the goodness of existence by choosing to live ourselves. 

And what I mean by that is that when you're in a period of deep depression, it's often the case that you don't feel the goodness of your own existence. Your own existence feels meaningless, but you can see the goodness of other people's existence. You see them living life and enjoying life and going about their day, and you think, it is good that they live. 

It's good that they exist. Um, But they're watching us, they're watching us, and they're watching us go through struggles. And, uh, when we choose to get out of bed each day and live life despite suffering, what we're communicating to them is that life is fundamentally good, that their lives are fundamentally good, because what we communicate with our lives is echoed in their lives. 

And so that's part of the message of this book, is that you are a witness. You bear witness to the goodness of life just by getting out of bed. And um, and I have received some pushback on this, because some people have said, Well, what if you have a chronic illness or something, you know, uh, is it always necessary to get out of bed? 

And just to clarify, the, the image of getting out of bed is, uh, representative of choosing life. It's not literally that you have to get out of bed. Like, there are periods where you're gonna be, that you, where you might be stuck in bed, where you may be bedridden. Um, that's fine. You can figuratively get out of bed without physically getting out of bed. 

Um, I don't want that to be a hang up. 

[00:11:37] Geoff: Yeah, for sure. 

[00:11:38] Cyd: One, one thought too, as I'm also, I don't, you've probably gotten this pushback too, but I'm just, you know, as I listen, I'm thinking, you know, a possible response or a possible pushback to would be, you know, there's such an emphasis on wanting to live authentically and honestly. Right. And not live like sort of putting on a facade or a veneer. 

And especially a lot of the women, you know, that I know, and I struggle with this myself is this sort of like putting on a good front. Right. Or making it appear as if, you know, especially if you're in ministry of any kind. And so that sort of pressure of like making it look better than it actually is. Um, and so how do you speak to that? 

Like how does bearing witness not become performance or faking it? 

[00:12:22] Alan Noble: Yeah, that's a great question. There's a, there's a balancing act here, right? Um, I think that there is a way of, of being inauthentic, of, of hiding our flaws, and that actually perpetuates the problem, because what it communicates to people is, uh, there is no suffering, there is no problems here, my life is good, uh, and then when those people go through sufferings, they're gonna feel alienated, they're gonna feel like, what's wrong with me? 

Why dowhy am I suffering when the other people seem to be having comfortable, easy lives? And that just makes things worse. , What I would say is that we need to be honest while at the same time, uh, faithful. Honest, but faithful. And so, if it's true that, that our lives are good, then, um, living faithfully means living as if our lives are good. 

Not as if our lives are, are, are without suffering, without struggle, without pain, but that our lives matter, that they are meaningful, that they are good in that sense. And so, means not curling up into a ball and, and Staying locked up in our, in ourselves and in our sorrows, but, but choosing to open ourselves up to the joy and the goodness of this life, to enjoying other people, the company of other people, to enjoying the pleasures that God has given us. 

And that can be difficult when you're going through a period of suffering, because you feel like you don't deserve good things. And so choosing to enjoy good things can be a way of living, really, of living authentically to the truth. Not to your truth, but to the capital T truth, which is that life is a good gift from a loving God. 

[00:14:12] Cyd: Yeah. And I appreciate that response. I think that's helpful. The balance right between, I love what you said, honest, but faithful. Right? So being honest about the suffering, but not allowing the suffering to make you withdraw from everything. Um, but I do want to like ask too, like, you know, I mean at one point in your book you're talking about how, you know, what, what depression can do and what mental illness can do is distort your understanding of reality such that what you're perceiving is not the same thing that people around you are perceiving. 

And I think you even use the example of like the laughter of your child can sound like grating nails on a chalkboard. So how do you. How do you address that of like understanding that like when you're in that place of darkness, like it's hard for you to even know what, how to name your reality in a way that is hopeful or faithful. 

Um, and then maybe as part of that, like, how do you speak to people who are living with someone who's in a really dark place and like maybe ways that you would say to be present with that person? So maybe, I know that's two questions at once, so pick whichever one you want to answer. 

[00:15:16] Alan Noble: Yeah, I mean, I think I can kind of answer them together, in that The point I'mor one of the points I'm trying to make in the book is that there are periods in which you have to be radically dependent upon the insight that other people give you into Um, into reality because your, um, emotions will, uh, cloud your judgment so that you no longer see life, uh, as worth living or as valuable or as beautiful or as good or as hopeful. 

You no longer, you know, you can begin questioning your salvation and, um, your contributions to the world, and whether you're a drain to your family or a burden to your friends, and these sorts of things. And in those times, you have to get to a place where you can be dependent upon others. And this is kind of a challenge, I think, in our very individualistic society, where people are talking unironically about speaking their truth and living their truth, and what I'm saying is, actually, you need to understand the truth, and that often comes from outside, not from inside yourself, because inside yourself is often very deceptive. 

Um, our emotions lie to us and when our emotions lie to us enough, it affects our reasoning and then we really need a voice outside of us that can say, you are, your life is meaningful. Your life is good. We, we love you. It is good that you are, you exist. And um, and that's part of what I think being with someone who's going through a difficult time, you know, you need to be that voice of, of compassion. 

not beating them over the head with, with, you know, why don't you understand, why don't you see that, you know, life is worth living or, you know, whatever, uh, but, but compassionately, um, winsomely conveying the, the goodness of them, um, and, and the gratitude that we have for their lives. Um, that's, that's part of what's, what's, what's necessary. 

Um, and, and, and when you're in that place of despair, part of your job is to suspend your own judgment. You know, your judgment can be flawed. It can be wrong. And sometimes we have to rely on the judgments of others in order to get through the day.  

[00:17:44] Cyd: Mm. Ah, that's so well said. I would say that applies even when you're not living in a dark spot, right? Like, all the time we should always be open to the idea that our own inner truth might be distorted. Um, and always being, having that humility of letting other people speak into, am I seeing this right? 

Are you seeing this the same way I am? Um, I think that's really helpful, that, that reliance on community. I mean, we aren't meant to walk this life alone. So, 

[00:18:11] Geoff: I think that, uh, kind of like as the two of you were talking, um, this idea that like mental health in general, but also struggling with depression, um, needs to be done in community. Right. And I saw that. That sounds like a no duh. Like, how can I love God and love others in the midst of my mental illness? 

[00:18:29] Cyd: But at the same time, there's nothing that feels more isolating than depression, right? Of like, nobody understands how hard this is and what this 

[00:18:36] Geoff: and I, I think there's a two cultural pressures that you both named already, which is one, we have this like one, um, self sufficiency kind of perspective of like, I, you know, I'm going to push through this alone. I'm going to get through this. I'm going to, you know, some sort of cycles of trying really hard than giving up. 

And then you have the other side and this can happen in the same person or different groups of people. Then you have also the self. Uh, the expressing my authentic self side, which is I am in, I am who I am in my suffering and to do anything else is that actually not to be authentic to this, this time and being of my life. 

Right. And so, and both of those kind of shut you down from community and from that witness of life and from, uh, or you just form communities that look and say the exact same things, uh, kind of that you mentioned, Alan, uh, communities online. Um, and so, but how do we. You know, open ourselves up. And so, uh, and you talk about humility actually as being part of that, opening yourselves up, but usually people struggling with mental illness and, uh, depression, like, don't want to be told, you know, in first Peter chapter five or six, humble yourself before the Lord and his mighty hand, right. 

Um, but you kind of take a sense in which actually that. You know, maybe we're missing something when we write off the call to humility in the midst of mental anguish and suffering. Like, can you, can you, uh, open that up a little bit for us? Yeah. 

[00:20:03] Alan Noble: is the wisdom of humility. Humility is endless. He says that in four quartets, and I think that's true. And humility is the beginning of healing. It's the beginning of wisdom. You know, I think in Proverbs, when it says that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, I think fear of the Lord fundamentally is a description of humility. 

And vulnerability, healthy vulnerability, is a form of humility. Humbling ourselves. Living in a society where, uh, individual achievement is so prized and creating and crafting and developing and promoting certain identities is so, seen as so important, um, confessing to having a mental illness is so, well developed. 

an act of humility. Uh, and, and that's not to say that in order to be humble, you have to go tell everyone that you have a mental illness. I mean, I think we need to be, uh, circumspect about who we share our struggles with. But, um, for most of us, Most of us aren't going to err on the side of, of oversharing with our mental illness. 

That is a temptation for some people today, especially, um, and that's what we talked about earlier where you come to identify with your mental illness and instead of being humble, it actually becomes a badge of honor. Uh, it becomes who you are and, um, rather than what you experience. But most of us, I think, err on the other side. 

And that is, we hide, uh, especially older people, we, we, we hide our suffering. We don't want to be, uh, to humble ourselves before others. And I think some of the most profound moments that I've experienced in adult life have been in small groups where, uh, adults have said, you know, I have this disorder and, um, shared that with other. 

grown ups in the church. And, um, I don't know why I said grown ups, but, uh, adults. Other people in the church, um, as opposed to kids, I guess. Uh, yeah, don't burden kids with your mental illness. Try not to do that. Uh, but, but, but confessing it to to, to, to grownups is a valuable thing, and it's an act of humility. 

And, um, part of that humility is, uh, allowing other people into the space of your life where you are suffering so that they can minister to you. Because, um, one of the dangers that we have is this danger of trying to perpetuate our own existence, trying to stay alive on our own, trying to You know, to, to stave off the suffering, the depression, the anxiety, whatever, on our own, without the help of other people, and, and really being humble enough to come alongside someone and say, I need your help. 

Can you please talk to me? Because I'm scared, or I'm alone, or I'm depressed. And, um, that requires humility, and I think it's, I think it's the first step in, in the process of healing. 

[00:23:10] Cyd: yeah, and I just don't want to underestimate how monumental the effort can be to take that step, right? To actually reach that out, especially, um, you know, we like to talk about neuroscience as part of this podcast. And so even just to acknowledge for a moment that often, um, you know, when there's, When you're in a deep place of darkness, whether that's depression or anxiety, it's also that there's something going on in your nervous system that is sort of keeping you stuck. 

Um, so, you know, we talk about depression as sort of like a chronic state of freeze, um, where you're sort of in this place of, of inability to get going or to get moving because your nervous system has sort of. Tried to shut you down as a survival or coping mechanism. And so when you say that necessity of reaching out, um, you know, we've also talked on this podcast about mirror neurons and how important it can be to be around other people who then their bodies are conveying something to you that you're not capable of feeling on your own, but when you're around other people who are experiencing joy or who are laughing, you're picking your body's picking up on that. 

Um, and it's picking up on sort of those cues of safety, even if you yourself are in a place of a sort of a toned, you know, frozen place. Um, and so that, that sense of the longer we stay by ourselves, the longer we'll stay frozen. And so that, and just to relate a story, we have a good friend and I don't think she would mind me sharing this. 

She'd probably think it was funny, but there was a lot going on in her life. and we actually went to an amusement park with some teenagers because it was part of our youth group and she went on a roller coaster and screamed and laughed and it's like that whole process of sort of getting that adrenaline rush on the roller coaster sort of shook her out, um, of this deep, dark place that she had been in. 

Um, not that I'm recommending everybody go ride roller coasters. But that does sort of speak to the impact of like your body has shut down, um, and that sort of like change of activity or change of environment, that sort of, um, you know, shake up in your body and what that did for her to sort of like lift her out of that spot. 

Um, so just, you know, not to underestimate that there's also a bodily. Part of this, but you know, God is at work in our bodies as well as in our ability to ask other people to help us reason and see the truth. There's also that what we pick up from being around other bodies and their joy, even when we're incapable of experiencing it. 

[00:25:45] Alan Noble: what, that's what makes that initial step so hard because when you're, when you're frozen, you know, you know, very often, you know the right thing to do. You know, I need to be around other people. I need to tell someone else I need help. I need to take, but that first step can be so monumental. 

One of the messages of this book is that ordinary life takes a lot of courage. And that's not acknowledged enough. And this is an example of that courage, of, um, just that that basic step of reaching out and asking someone for help, and being around other people so that they can help you co regulate, uh, is, uh, is, is, is powerful. 

It takes a lot of courage, but when you do that, um, great healing can, can, can come. 

[00:26:35] Cyd: Yeah. Yeah. So I just, you know, anyone who's listening, I just want to say like, if anybody ever comes to you and says, I'm really struggling or I'm feeling like I'm in a really bad spot or I'm really struggling with depression. The first response that took so much courage, like, wow, I'm so proud of you for saying something 

[00:26:53] Alan Noble: Yeah. 
 

[00:26:54] Cyd: to say, that's like sort of a great beginning. 

Right. I'm just, I understand the effort that it took for that to come out of your mouth. And I'm honored that you would make that effort and that you would be willing to do that with 

[00:27:07] Geoff: you don't, you don't specifically say this, uh, in your book, Alan, uh, You don't use the word agency, but Sid, you were just celebrating like even the smallest bit of agency you were talking about, uh, you're giving examples. I don't know if these are personal or just ones you kind of gathered from friends and others of like when you're at the pool and you are just thinking of the dark meaninglessness of everything. 

But you're still at the pool playing with your kids when you're reading the bedtime story one more time, even though, you know, you're in the midst of like you, you're taking these little steps of agency for the benefit of those that you love. And I think that it's, it's, it's those, that's for me, part of the, the gift of creation of our good creator is gift is that we contribute to the world. 

Um, and that depression, I. Uh, oftentimes says that I have no control, like nothing I do matters. Getting out of bed doesn't matter. Right. And so like what Sid was saying, when, if you're the person around others who are struggling, always like, um, thanking, blessing, and encouraging that step of agency. Thank you for telling me that. 

Thank you for coming to church today. I know you didn't want to thank you for getting, you know. Like, I know that was hard for you just coming to this birthday party. Like, thank you for being here. You don't have to talk to anybody, you know, like, like just those little gratitudes for like, Hey, you're, you know, you're doing that. 

[00:28:28] Cyd: Yeah, I even, yeah, I celebrate the effort that you made in that, you know, knowing that that's a big deal. 

[00:28:35] Geoff: I think too, the last thing that I was just thinking is, uh, I think it's in Hebrews. I had it memorized once, right. Uh, you know, do not forsake giving, uh, gathering together. And I think there is that wisdom, you know, like when I was growing up, it's like, well, because the God will be mad if you miss the worship service. 

Right. 

[00:28:51] Cyd: you have to go to church twice every Sunday otherwise. 

[00:28:54] Alan Noble: Right. 
 

[00:28:55] Geoff: once at night and Wednesdays. Right. Uh, but I think like there's that wisdom of when you. Don't have the faith. And this is why we talk about embodied faith. We don't just mean individual bodies. It's a corporate body. So it's like the embodied faith is all of us together is, you know, when you're in that place, like just going and being with others is kind of a jumpstart to faith. 

Oh, like I'm cynical about other people's joy right now, but it's probably good on multiple levels of my being in existence to see other people worshiping and the, and the flip side is true for those who are in a good season, a blessed, a full season of life. Amen. Hallelujah. It's good for us, you know, cause I generally live in that side to see people who are struggling because chances are very good. 

I'm going to be in that place one day, or I'm going to be very close to someone who's in that place. And I need to know that these are the, that all of this lives within the community of faith. We can rejoice with those who rejoice. We can weep with those who weep. Uh, and so let us not give up. Um, gathering together, but let us be communities that know how to hold space. 

Oh, actually, I don't love, I don't love that phrase, but anyways, that, that we're, where we can, you know, where we can have space and everyone could be welcome, you know, we could bring all those different things together. That's what I think Jesus, you know, is calling us to 

[00:30:11] Alan Noble: Yeah. Amen. 

[00:30:13] Geoff: well, any last, um, kind of. Perl, not pearls of wisdom. Is that right? But the last things that you kind of been thinking or have been on your heart since you've written this book or that have kind of come about, um, on the adventure, you know, like having a writing a books, like throwing a child out into college, you know, you, you hear, you hear from them every once in a while, sometimes it's good news and sometimes you're worried it's not. 

So how, how has it been to kind of throw this out into the world? And what have you kind of learned also? 

[00:30:38] Alan Noble: Yeah. I mean, I think, um, I think, you know, I address one of the things that I've learned, uh, that, that using this metaphor of getting out of bed, which I do mean somewhat literally, but I do mean figuratively, it's, you know, it's a, it's a kind of type, um, has created a little bit of confusion with some, with some readers and, um, Yeah. 

That's unfortunate, um, but, uh, I, I think, um, for the most part I've learned that there are a lot of hurting people and that there's not a lot of encouragement out there in the world, uh, when there should be. And, um, and I just hope that people pick it up and read it and find hope.  

[00:31:18] Geoff: Amen. Amen. Hope is, uh, a whole nother word we could spend a lot of time talking about. So, but, but thank you. So, um, where can people, uh, find you online? How can people follow your work? Uh, and are you working on any other, uh, new projects that we should be aware of? 

[00:31:33] Alan Noble: Yeah, so my next book is tentatively called something like Recollecting Your Life, um, and it's a book of practical advice based on the the four cardinal and three theological virtues. Um, and so it'll be, um, I don't know when it'll come out. I've got to finish writing it, and it's A long ways to go. So, that's a daunting task. 

Speaking of hope, um, Uh, you can find me on what was formerly known as Twitter at The Alan Noble. Um, you can find my website, uh, uh, I think it's oalannoble. com and, uh, the O stands for Orville. So, in case you were wondering, there you go, to answer your earlier question 

[00:32:18] Geoff: a tease. Way to bring that all together. I love it. 

[00:32:21] Cyd: Yeah. Like a bookend to the whole episode. 

[00:32:25] Alan Noble: circle. 

Yeah. So those are probably the best ways to find me. 

[00:32:28] Geoff: All right. Great. Well, those will be in the show notes. Again, the book is On Getting Out of Bed, The Burden and Gift of Living. Thank you so much for taking the time to have written that as well as to be on with us today. 

[00:32:41] Alan Noble: Thank you for having me. It's been great.