097 Confessions of an Amateur Saint (with Mandy Smith)

Instead of pretending to have it all together or insisting that you’re the problem, do you long to see more Christian leaders be honest about their own faith struggles? What benefit could there be to having a front-row seat to the moments that leaders choose to trust in God, even when it’s hard to believe?

Today we have Mandy Smith, pastor and award-winning author and speaker—and also a great friend—with us to talk about this very thing.We are talking about her newest book, Confessions of an Amateur Saint: The Christian Leader’s Journey from Self-Sufficiency to Reliance on God.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:27 Mandy Smith's New Book
03:16 The Journey of Writing
05:23 The Role of Joy and Creativity in Ministry
07:59 Attachment and Dependence on God
11:48 Confessions and Vulnerability
14:54 The Importance of Connection and Openness
16:57 Spiritual Warfare and Pruning
25:41 Solidarity with Christ's Sacrifices
29:07 The Role of Vulnerability in Leadership
32:14 The Power of Shared Struggles
36:58 The Structure and Purpose of the Book
43:29 Final Thoughts and Reflections

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Transcript

Confessions of an Amateur Saint

Introduction and Guest Introduction

[00:00:14] Geoff Holsclaw: Instead of pretending to have it all together or insisting that you're the problem, do you long to see more Christian leaders be honest about their own faith struggles? What benefit could there be to having a front row seat to the moments when leaders choose to trust God? Even when it's hard to believe.

Well, that's what we're talking about today. Today we have Mandy Smith on with us. She is a pastor and award winning author and speaker, and also a good friend of the show. 

Mandy Smith's New Book

[00:00:42] Geoff Holsclaw: And she has recently just written a new book called Confessions of an Amateur Saint, the Christian leaders journey from self sufficiency to reliance on God.

Mandy, thanks so much for being on the show today.

[00:00:55] Mandy Smith: you guys.

[00:00:56] Geoff Holsclaw: Now we are doing a little bit of a role reversal here. So I just did the intro and now I'm just going to hand it off to Cyd who, uh, because you two are really good friends and Cyd really loves this book. And so I'm actually, she's going to be driving the proverbial, uh, car now.

[00:01:11] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. 

Personal Reflections and Book Reception

[00:01:11] Cyd Holsclaw: So first of all, Mandy, I've been looking forward to talking to you all day because unlike you, it is not morning for me.

[00:01:18] Mandy Smith: done anything

[00:01:18] Cyd Holsclaw: late afternoon for me. And

[00:01:20] Mandy Smith: This is my all day so far.

[00:01:22] Cyd Holsclaw: I know. And I've been, and I've been doing other things all day going, Oh, that's right. I get to talk to Mandy at the end of the day.

So first of all, I, funny story. And this is just, you know, a little bit about me and how I function and also just how much I love your books. So first we got this wonderful advance copy, the one with the little white band readers copy, you know, don't, don't share. So that was fun. I started reading it then when we got that.

Then, uh, I think Geoff got a copy probably because he does this podcast. So we have a second copy. So that's two copies now. And then I had to preorder it because you know, it helps your Amazon numbers and I always want to support my friends by preordering your books. So then I got another copy of it on Tuesday on Wednesday.

So I'm excited cause I have two copies to give away to people, which I'm very excited about. Um, but I. Love this book from the bottom of my heart for so many reasons and I just want to share That I read it Uh, I read it off and on, but I read it on the plane on the way back on the way to and on the way back from the broken to beloved conference that Geoff and I went to.

And the, the conference was basically centered around one day was helping pastors and leaders become more sensitive to people in their congregations who have experienced trauma, um, and abuse. And then the second day was for people who have experienced sort of. You know, church abuse and religious trauma.

And I couldn't help but notice how timely it was and how right it was to be reading this book in which you are so honestly humble about your own wrestling as a leader and just thinking about what kind of a church culture would we have if leaders could be this honest. All the time. Um, and I know that's part of your vision for writing the book.

So could you say just a little bit more about, we all know writing a book is not an easy process. It takes work, it takes dedication. And so what was your heart behind putting this book out into the

The Journey of Writing

[00:03:30] Mandy Smith: Yeah, I think it took me a while to realize I was even writing a book because in the beginning I was just trying to survive. I was just, you know, confessing, journaling my confessions. To just almost felt like vomiting to get it out of my system, you know, and then after I'd written, you know, 40 or 50 of them, I thought, you know, maybe having conversations with other pastors and hearing them feeling the same way I'm feeling maybe, and I just came to a place where I thought, well, maybe this isn't only for me.

Maybe there'd be some way that this could be helpful. And um, It is kind of scary to put those things out in the world and, and you fear maybe I'm the only one or maybe people will use this against me or, you know, there's some gender junk associated with it too and, um, I don't know, I just thought it was worth it because I was having conversations with so many pastors and feeling like, well, Um, maybe it would be healing, um, for others to see behind the scenes and maybe healing for me too, to see that I'm not alone.

So it's worth it. It's worth it. As I'm getting, I'm already getting such amazing feedback from people that just came out a few days ago. Um, and people just saying like, have you been reading my journal? Are you watching in my window? You know? So that blesses me to think I'm not alone too.

[00:04:41] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, I felt very much that way too, even just reading your table of contents of just all the wants and longings and feeling like, Oh yes, I've wrestled. I do wrestle with all those same things. Um, but you have taken a really vulnerable step here in putting language. To things that so many of us struggle with privately and not just leaders.

I think anybody struggles with these same struggles. So you have given voice, not just for leaders who are leading communities, but for anybody who's entering into a life of trying to follow Jesus, um, and life with God. And I love, um, you named a little bit of that tension when you said this statement, um, And I want you to unpack this a little bit for listeners.

So I'm a chef who's been warned to restrain my delight in food. I'm just here to cook for others. Can you say a little bit more about what that was about?

The Role of Joy and Creativity in Ministry

[00:05:37] Mandy Smith: well, I think most of us, when we feel a sense of call to ministry, it's out of just a deep joy and a thought of like, I could do this full time, you know, someone just said to me the other day, we thought that we could just be Bible people and prayerful people like, and that could be our job, you know, and, um, and then something happens that along the way, and of course, like any.

So called profession has a place where you just have to do things you don't prefer, but, um, I watched some, someone this week who's in her first ministry say, well, you know, I really just wanted to have faith conversations with people, but, Yeah, you know what, I guess I was just being naive. And I was like, no, you fight for that.

Like, maybe it's your job to help the whole church have a new vision of what your job is. And, and maybe they'll be freed from the drudgery of just volunteering for the sake of running this church, you know? So, um, I don't know. I think we shouldn't be surprised that other people don't want to be a part of this faith or this community that we're leading.

If we are just communicating that it's It's just all duty, you know, and what if the world or leaders and whole congregations of people who are, who are just doing it for the love of it and, and that does not mean we do a worse job. I think we're afraid that if it comes from our creative, joyful, childlike heart, that it will actually be worse somehow.

But um, yeah, I, I'm leading a church here that three years ago, I think it had actually already died. There was 12 people here and beyond the size of it, it was just incredibly depressed and anxious and I, I had an opportunity. That's why so many of these prayers are so raw because it was, it felt impossible and I had an opportunity to try out like this important situation feels like it needs some really important things and we're tempted to think important things are like meetings and programs and plans and systems.

And I thought, well, what if joy is important? What if hope is important? What if creativity and playfulness are important? Which felt, I mean seriously felt like it was going to kill me to take that risk. But I'm seeing the life from it. This little, this little place is a new place and I'm a new person and so I'm glad I took the risk to be a chef who still enjoys food.

[00:08:02] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. And that way, as you served the, the food that you love so much, you saw the taste buds awakening and the life coming back to the congregation. Yeah. 

Attachment and Dependence on God

[00:08:13] Cyd Holsclaw: It makes me think about, um, you know, this is the attaching to God podcast. We talk about attachment a lot and Geoff and I, you know, we're working on getting our little book baby out next summer.

Um, Yeah, and we talk a lot. You know, we talk a lot because the attachment research shows that, you know, when our, our attachment is built on joyful connection, right? The foundation of our attachment is having this foundation of being with someone who's glad to be with us. And so I just think as you allowed your joy.

to spill forward to your congregation, that joy of your gladness to be with God and his gladness to be with you. Um, I just wondered how that started to spill out for this sad group of people who were just longing to

[00:09:02] Mandy Smith: and the funny thing is I should say this that the desperate situation I was in me and this is what the book is partly about tempted me to To just white knuckle it, you know hunker down and work harder but I saw in the desperation an opportunity to need the Lord more and so it's actually a gift that that the impossibility of our work, which I think it's always impossible.

Um, if it doesn't feel impossible, we're doing something wrong. The impossibility of our work does have the temptation, does have the tendency to crush us, or it's an invitation to say, I just need you Lord. You know, and so what a beautiful thing that there's this opportunity if we, if we attend to it. Um, there's this opportunity for the very impossibility of this to be the thing that teaches us that joy again.

Um, and so you're asking what that looks like in the, in the congregation. Um, so many weeks. I, you know, when it comes to something like preaching a sermon, this was the, the process that I had to go through where like, by the time I came to Sunday, I had something real to say, but it was mostly because that week was hellish and, um, and, and I just had been reminded again, I just need the Lord.

Like we all just need the Lord, you know? And so, And people have said to me, like, I've tried different things. Some of them have worked, some of them haven't worked. People are like, what have you done, Mandy, to make this church come back to life? And you know, of course we've made some decisions and changed some things, but I think if whatever part I've played in it, probably mostly has come from the church.

letting people see my own hope and my own joy and my own tears at times too, you know, that, um, and I found myself saying over and over again, and partly like to myself, uh, even though it doesn't feel like it, like God has gone nowhere. The, the gospel is still good news, the spirit is still transformative, the, the church is still God's hope for the world, like all these things are still happening.

We're just going to keep saying this, you know, and we're going to keep getting everything out of the way. Until it's possible and I, I think I've realized the work of spiritual warfare and, and pruning more than ever before because when things are desperate, we want to add a bunch of stuff. We want to feel like we started some things and we, we have added some things, but I think the thing that's done most of the.

The real transformation is, um, the pruning work. And I've really clung to the passage of the good soil. That's just reminded me like the seed is good. It's being scattered everywhere. The problem is there's birds and there's thorns and there's rocks. And so it's our job to do a lot of clearing work. And so that doesn't feel good when things are desperate to lose things, but, um, it's really freed us from stuck places.

And, and so there's, there's joy on the other Cyde of that. Mm, mm hmm, mm, wow, hmm,

Confessions and Vulnerability

[00:12:03] Cyd Holsclaw: And that clearing work, I love how you talk about in the introduction, you know, you just have this little, that you talk about clearing self sufficiency really is what you're clearing in this whole book. Right. Um, and you have this one section where you say, problem, be powerful questions, be present crisis, be active while I say, I believe God is powerful and present and active.

My behavior too often proclaims this theology. I am powerful. I am present. And I am active. And when I finally remember to reach outCyde myself, to get resources, to ask questions, to find books and best practices, it's still too often an anxious grasping for tools that allow me to clamber back to self sufficiency.

And then you say this statement that I love that made me remember a conversation that Geoff and I had at one point. So Geoff, this is your moment to weigh in because I don't remember where this came from, but you say, I want to be a closed system. I'd like to be self contained and Geoff, I know we had a conversation about that related to attachment about,

[00:13:06] Geoff Holsclaw: We were talking

[00:13:07] Cyd Holsclaw: that about

[00:13:07] Geoff Holsclaw: Dr. Cloud's book, um, when he was, uh, learning about like thermal dynamics and closed systems are tending toward death and stop stopping and open systems like have an input of a new, of a new energy, uh, basically, uh, and so we were talking about how, uh, Uh, you know, spirituality is a sense and openness to an attachment system.

That's beyond just human relationships, right? We're attaching to God. Um, and what I was hearing from you, uh, Mandy was that process of rupture and repairs. A lot of times I say this over and over for like, Listeners have been listening for a bit, but like we often think that security, what makes us feel secure or safe in a situation is one where there is no ruptures, but actually a secure relationship is one in which ruptures are repaired and that you start building a confidence that the relationship can bear the rupture, uh, in honesty and vulnerability and that vulnerability or weakness is not punished, but then there is a process and it can take a long time of repair, uh, And so, and that's kind of what I think your book is kind of about where it's just like, Hey, let's be honest about these struggles and these doubts and the self self sufficiency of my wanting to be a closed system because that's easier and I can manage it, but it is kind of, that's what leads toward death.

Right. Or we can be open, but then it's a

[00:14:36] Mandy Smith: I love that,

[00:14:37] Geoff Holsclaw: I don't know if

[00:14:37] Mandy Smith: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:14:38] Geoff Holsclaw: Cyd. Sorry. I just took over like a man,

[00:14:41] Cyd Holsclaw: was, it was what I was trying to draw out in that. Like, cause that, cause that's what you talk about, Mandy, is that like this

[00:14:46] Mandy Smith: mm, sucks itself dry,

[00:14:49] Cyd Holsclaw: Um, and so yeah, yeah. And so you're talking about like the openness, like the choice to remain open. Uh, to remain oriented and finding your life in God is the source of life, even though the way that our culture functions, it feels like the source of

The Importance of Connection and Openness

[00:15:08] Mandy Smith: yeah, it's shameful to need things from beyond yourself, and but when you think about it, I remember, um, feeling like, Oh God, this like, I'm overwhelmed. I don't have the time I'd like to have to lead this meeting and to prepare that sermon and I just am like, I'm just showing up with whatever I've got.

Is it enough? Like, I think I felt like there was this magic percentage that unless I did my 33. 4 percent or whatever, God was like, no, you didn't do enough. Can't work with that. You know? And, um, I just felt like I was never bringing enough and, and I didn't know if that was, if God would be able to work.

And I kind of felt him say like, well, Mandy, you know, the energy that you're bringing and the body that you have, the breath in your lungs and the ideas in your mind, like they're kind of me too, you know, so, so like the boy, the little boy who brought his lunch to Jesus, like Jesus had also made the fish.

You know, and the wheat that made the bread. And so it's humbling to remember that even what we do bring to him is stuff we got from him in the first place. And um, I don't know, I kind of felt him smiling at me to remind me of that. But um, yeah, I, I keep having this image of a, of a fetus in the womb. Like it's not a shame that it draws everything from, you know, there's an attachment thing there.

That. That what if we're continuing to live in that state with the Lord and too often, we just want to cut that umbilical cord and imagine that we can survive without him. But, um, you know, we have that image from so many places in scripture that I use in the book, um, from Jeremiah 17, that the cursed is the one who trusts in mere mortals.

They're like a shrub in the wilderness that just dries up. And I don't think that's cursed because God is saying, I curse you, you know, it's the, it's a natural outcome that if you disconnect from the source, then of course you shouldn't be surprised if there's no fruit in no life. And then, you know, on the other hand, the tree that we see in Psalm one, we see it in the garden of Eden.

Spiritual Warfare and Pruning

[00:17:11] Mandy Smith: We see it in the book of revelation. It's there in Jeremiah 17 that says, but blessed is the one who's sets its roots down into the stream. And it's. Always, uh, bearing fruit and its leaves are always green and it's never afraid in times of drought. And I'm like, Oh, that one, that's the tree I want to be.

And so then if I'm not careful, I work really hard to be that tree, you know, and then by accident end up being the one that's self sufficiently trying to be, get the fruit of being dependent without being dependent, you know, so, but it's a beautiful image to hold up and to. And it can be almost a diagnostic, not with, not in a judgment sense of ourselves, but to say, you know, of course there are just hard times even when we're being, even when we're being faithful.

But if we find ourselves like drying up and dying, is, is it a way to ask ourselves, how have I disconnected from the Lord because he's the source of all good things?

[00:18:08] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. And, uh, you know, even just the way that you talk about, uh, We're not meant to have a severed umbilical cord. We're not meant to be a closed system. And, you know, when we talk about attachment, it's like we talk about how the, the independence is so valued by the world, but we're actually meant to have not only a capacity to be able to go out and do things, um, and to be able to make contributions to the world, but we're also meant to have a capacity for complete vulnerability and independence and connection.

Like we were never meant to be. Disconnected self sufficient people. Um, but we're meant to thrive and flourish in intimate relationships as we are partnering with God to see him flourish his life in the world.

[00:18:56] Mandy Smith: And I think there's a fear that that will make us passive or that that will make us like codependent or like there's a way in which practicing this, this confessing that I talk about in the book, there's a way that this practice has actually brought something in me that there's just a new kind of energy, uh, a renewed creativity and, um, a sense of.

Like anybody looking at me would probably think that I'm a really productive person or I'm a really fruitful person or like I'm not trying to be those things. It's just, there's something welling up in me that I just don't know what to do with. Like, I don't have time to write a book, for example. It's just, you know, there are so.

I, I see how sometimes we feel like, Oh, depending on God means just being kind of mediocre. I'm just going to kind of step back from my, uh, you know, the energy that I'm exerting, but I think it's, it becomes a better energy, you know, cause he's the one, he's the creator of the universe. He's the source of every good idea and, and every energy that we need to make anything.

And, and so that is part of the faith that's required for this is to trust that like, if I step back from my striving. Um, am I just going to become this like, Oh, aren't they nice? They don't really get much done, but bless them, you know, um, or am I trusting that there's actually, you know, this, this tree is fruitful and I'm not doing it for the sake of bearing fruit.

I'm doing it for the sake of connecting to the Lord, but, but he's got plans for all of us. And this is, this is not just about us getting work done. This is about us flourishing as. As his children and, and honestly, like, it feels like back to Eden. It feels like stepping back into our original call to be, uh, living God's presence in these bodies.

Like, what a beautiful thing that he's planting something in us that takes on our DNA and, and lives in this world in a unique way throughout, through our personal lives and gifts and personalities. Like. What a beautiful thing in car incarnation, you know,

[00:20:56] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. And I remember, um, and I don't know if you remember this, so I don't want to ask you to tell a story that you don't remember. But I know, um, you know, when we were on that, the board, the board that we were on together. And I remember one time we were having a conversation, you know, we had spent the whole day sort of trying to figure things out and trying to solve things.

And you and I had been processing in the evening and you told me a story about, um, A woman of color in a different context. I don't remember what the context was, but you said she just stood up and she just put her arms out and she said,

[00:21:32] Mandy Smith: yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a really important gathering of leaders from all over the U. S. and we were discerning a meeting that was sort of event that was going to happen and we'd been, we'd been Listening to all these different, um, papers on this, just the state of the church and the state of the world.

And it felt incredibly heavy and, um, you know, this was all academics and, um, denominational leaders and pastors. And, um, there was just this deep grief in the room. And this young woman. Uh, just stood up in the monks thistle and cried out, we need you. We need you. And just something broke in the room. I've got goosebumps just remembering it and it, she was not just crying out to the Lord.

She was teaching us. Maybe that's in the back of my mind as I was writing this book. I hadn't remembered that story, but thank you for reminding me. She was, I felt convicted and ashamed of myself that I had been sitting there thinking, Well, what can we do about all that? You know? And she was like, I know what to do.

We need the Lord, you know, and this is what the Psalms teach us, that there's all these things we think we need and that can make us go off and do a bunch of stuff on our own, but if, if we're good and wise enough in that moment of desperation with all the things we think we need to talk to God about the things we need, then suddenly we look in his face and say, Oh, hang on, maybe I don't need those things as much as I thought.

Maybe the thing I really need is right here. And. Oftentimes those things don't change, but in the source of that crying out to him, we remember, I'm okay. Like I have the thing I need. And we come back to those things that were originally burdensome to us with a totally different perspective. You know, we, we don't see them as being so desperately the only thing we need because we've got the thing we need. that's kind of what these confessions are doing over and over again is, is feeling the burden and choosing not to do what I usually do, which is like, Oh, the burden means I have to work harder and think more and read more books and go to conferences and blah, you know, it's, it's maddening. And to just, I've tried to kind of almost do this Pavlov's dog thing in my own brain to say like that feeling of desperation.

Of this being impossible, that temptation to insufficient, to self sufficiency, that itself is your sign to cry out. Like just, just mark that. Your own self. that's when you have to talk to the Lord. Lie on the floor. Don't keep just trying to type up this sermon furiously out of some emptiness. Lie on the carpet and just let the tears come, let the, let the weeping come, let the confession come and say to the Lord, I'm sorry, I forgot I need you.

What do you have for me? And he may not answer the problem right away, but in a way he does because he just is with us and that's what we need.

[00:24:31] Cyd Holsclaw: And the way you just spoke about that, the embodiment of it, the way you notice in your body, that feeling of desperation and striving, like when you're looking for the solution, um, I love how you end the book where you're saying, you know, the temptation would be you get to the end of all these confessions.

And then I have this neat and tidy chapter that says six ways to lead from faith. Um, but the way that you say, my hope is that my confessions as personal and unique to me as they are, are a different kind of practical. In a way that puts flesh on the kinds of wrestling we must all do. And then you talk about the practical skill of learning to feel in your body, what you say it.

So

[00:25:12] Mandy Smith: I don't remember that bit. What does it say? No.

[00:25:15] Cyd Holsclaw: Oh, you don't. I, it's one of my favorite. It's like, I love this ending. It's like the practical silk. This confessing is teaching me to do is this, to learn, to feel in my body, the difference between self reliance and God reliance. It's what you, I feel like it was just what you were just talking about.

I'm learning to catch myself turning from the risky, reaching out to feel those orient outstretched roots, nodding inward to suck me dry again. And I'm growing in my capacity for the discomfort of choosing again to stretch out for everything I need from a source I can't see or understand. That sounds to me like laying on the carpet and just.

Yeah.

Solidarity with Christ's Sacrifices

[00:25:55] Mandy Smith: died many, many deaths before he ever got to the cross, and if we only think of Jesus sacrifice as being his physical death, then we kind of don't feel that connected to it because we're not physically dying most of the time.

And Mm hmm. It's, it's really been beautiful for me to see that Mark tells this leading up to the cross that final week where he's like, he's dying relational deaths. He's dying social deaths. He's dying to his sense of self preservation and convenience and comfort. Like he could choose any time to just protect himself and be like, Oh, just kidding, you know, um, and walk away.

And he just keeps, he dies. So many deaths, and Gethsemane, this is existential death, like he's already died in Gethsemane, I think, before he ever gets here. Um, to the cross. And so it's really beautiful to find that solidarity with him in all of the ways that we're called to die. And it's no small thing.

Our life is not just our physical bodies. Our life is also our sense of, of who we are and how people see us and, and preserving ourselves. And so it's good to, to see that. You know, on Tuesday morning when the sermon is not coming together or in the middle of that important meeting when things just hit the fan or when someone shares a grief with us that is more than our hearts can bear, like those moments are also moments to die to our need to be God for people and, um, to have all the answers and, um, There is, there is a, it's painful, like I don't want to minimize how painful that is.

Um, and I have, I have this passage on my door from Colossians that says, um, You have died. Like, you have died. That's already done. And then it says, And your life is hidden with Christ in God. And for a really long time, when things were really, really in crisis here, I just, I just felt some kind of solidarity in this.

Maybe it's Paul saying I have died, but I felt this solidarity in this. I, you have died. You've already died. Stop fighting. You've already died. And now that like, we've turned a corner and I see new life coming in me and in the congregation, I'm realizing there's a second part to the passage, Mandy, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Like we get Christ's life on the other Cyde of every death. It's Jesus doesn't want us to die for the sake of it. 

The Essence of Dying and Rising

[00:28:17] Mandy Smith: He wants us to die to who we think we are so that we can become who we truly are.

[00:28:21] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. So I know that Geoff is going to want, he likes to keep podcasts to a half hour so I could talk to you all day, but we will do that a different time. Um, but before we go,

[00:28:32] Geoff Holsclaw: I actually, I put in the notes. I, you didn't see the chat, I guess that uh, I was like, we can go longer.

[00:28:38] Mandy Smith: Whatever you need.

[00:28:39] Cyd Holsclaw: Oh,

[00:28:40] Geoff Holsclaw: You didn't see that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But uh, before, before Cyd's next question, you, this is one of my favorite verses too, but uh, Galatians two 20, I've been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the son of God, and this is why it all makes sense. Who loved me. And gave himself for me. So all that dying and rising is in the context of, of that fundamental love that

[00:29:07] Mandy Smith: Yeah, it's real. Like, this is actually good news. This is the gospel, you know. I believe it more than I've ever believed it, but only because I've had to die.

[00:29:18] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, and I,

[00:29:19] Cyd Holsclaw: But I just wanted to, I mean, Oh, go ahead,

The Role of Vulnerability in Leadership

[00:29:21] Geoff Holsclaw: well, I, going back to like, um, congregational structures and leaders and, um, Like I was talking earlier about like that process of rupture and repair. And I just, um, like parentally, I felt like the best thing that Cyd and I could do to our kids was confess when we were blowing it, like, and then show them what it's like to confess your sin and to then repair that, that rupture or, you know, or things like that.

And I think it's the same for churches too. Like a lot of times pastors get this or leaders or, or just, you know, That they have this sense, like, I have to have all the answers. I have to project total confidence. I have to, you know, be the stalwart of faith that is never shaken. Uh, and then one that just gets you all screwed up too.

That just means that the congregation doesn't then get to see the process of how do we grapple with our weaknesses. If I see the leaders do that, that gives me permission to do it. But then I see them do it in a way that's faith building and deepening in some mysterious way. It's that dying and rising.

You just talked about that. Like I know all three of us are longing is like, Oh, Church leaders could just do that more instead of it, like be the confidence and we're going to take over culture. Uh, we have to stand for this and point out who's wrong. Right. If that could just not that we're saying there's not wrong and right that, you know,

[00:30:45] Mandy Smith: I get

[00:30:46] Geoff Holsclaw: whatever, but.

Yeah, I just like, that's our heart. That's what, that's such a gift for your book to be able to like show the inner workings of someone, um, who's struggling, but you know,

[00:30:57] Mandy Smith: Yeah. 

Confessions and Congregational Dynamics

[00:30:58] Mandy Smith: And there's a way, it's been really helpful for me to name, that there, there are times as a Christian leader when someone comes to you and they're kind of without saying it asking you to be their God, like they want to put their hope in you and it actually feels really good. Like it's kind of delicious.

You're like, Ooh, yeah. Like this person wants me to be their God, how, how can I do that? Let me figure out a way. And of course, it's impossible for us to be that. And so we have to do this little Cydestep in that moment. First of all, we have to like get over our own desire to be someone's God, because that feels so, you know, satisfying, um, to be loved in that way or honored in that way.

And we have to be like, Oh, no, no, no. Like, let's look this way together, you know? Um, and. Yeah, there's, there's a way in what you're saying, Geoff, that, um, we're, we're, um, modeling what it means to rely on the Lord. It's not that we're, I think, you know, cause people often ask me to talk about vulnerability.

It's not that we're dumping our junk on people or asking them to be our counselors. It's that we're letting them in behind the scenes in appropriate ways. Of our own need for God. That's all it is. You know, we don't have to go into all the details and bear our burdens in a way that's, uh, that's too much on people.

But to just let people see our need for God is, is one of the best gifts we can give them. And it frees us as well as pastors from, you know, having to always have it all together.

[00:32:27] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. 

The Power of Shared Struggles

[00:32:28] Cyd Holsclaw: And I would say, I think the, the, the feedback I get most often when I preach or when I, you know, do public speaking is that people appreciate the, like, I can't believe you told that story because it was like you were telling my story. Like you were saying, people are saying, have you been reading my journal?

Are you reading my, my, my journal? Cause I feel these things. And I think the relief that people experience of. First of all, I'm not the only one that feels this way. And secondly, this person who believes God enough to be able to do this work still struggles in some of the ways I struggle. And I just love the way you leave the question hanging at the end of the book of what if the thing that our folks most need from us as leaders is to see our own need for God.

And I just think that's such a, I think it is. I think that's part of what it is, like when I feel it, when I walk into a place where the person who's leading the community seems to have this sort of feeling of like, I know where we're going. I know what we're doing. I know all the things and I've got my life together and I've got my faith together and you all need to get on board is a very different feeling than, and I'm so grateful that we are part of a church where all of us as pastors, we all.

you know, come from a place of being willing to be vulnerable and to be honest. Um, because it feels so different to have someone say, I'm human just like you are.

[00:34:05] Mandy Smith: Yeah. 

A Personal Story of Vulnerability

[00:34:06] Mandy Smith: I remember going to a training. I had asked at my previous congregation, I had asked some kind of prayer people to come and do a training for our prayer leaders in the congregation. So I wasn't leading this little retreat. Um, but in the middle of the retreat, I asked the question of the trainer, you know, what if you're praying for somebody who doesn't feel safe to you?

Mm hmm. And I really wasn't going to go into any details because it was, I was thinking of somebody in the church who wasn't at that retreat. And the leader of this retreat said, Mandy, that feels really significant. Can we pray for you about that? And I just felt this switch in me from like, I'm keeping it out there and now they want to pray for me.

And I wanted to say like, no, don't pray for me because that's going to be really, that's Too close for comfort, but I did this quick assessment of like, okay, everybody here is a leader in the church. They're mature in their own faith. I don't need to tell the situation. And so I said, yes, but I'll probably cry.

Like just giving you warnings. You're about to see your pastor cry. And so, um, without meaning to, I gave them a gift because they got to minister to me. Like I, I sat on the floor, I bawled my eyes out, and these 15 or so prayer people got to practice on me, and some of them had been in this training, had been learning for the first time about discerning pictures and images while they were.

praying for somebody. And for the first time they tried that out on me. And I was able to say, yeah, that really resonated with me. Thank you for sharing that with me. And, um, and in the midst of, I don't, I was sad cause they couldn't see this, but the shaking of my shoulders from crying became laughing as I just felt the Lord say, The body of Christ is all around you, like you are hidden in the body of Christ right now.

This is not an imaginary thing. You got 15 people who represent me all around me. So I was genuinely ministered to without inappropriately sharing, like, there's this horrible person in the church who I don't feel safe around. Um, And somehow, without even realizing I was doing it, was blessing these people who were able to minister to me and, um, you know, it doesn't always go that well, but that was an example that made me think, okay, there's something to this.

I need to take the risk of, of letting that be seen more, that we just need the Lord as well.

[00:36:27] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, you've, you've mentioned a couple of times and, you know, people as they listen might be like, I don't want my pastor vomiting all of their stuff all over all the time. Um, and I know that's not what you're suggesting. Um, and I think one of the confessions in your book actually, I think shows what you mean.

by sharing appropriately. And I wonder if you would be willing to read it.

[00:36:53] Mandy Smith: I need to get my

[00:36:54] Cyd Holsclaw: be willing to read one of your confessions? Um,

[00:36:57] Mandy Smith: I'm not a good author. I don't have it with me right now. It's just on the other Cyde of the room. Okay,

[00:37:02] Cyd Holsclaw: you better go get it. You should always have your book on your

[00:37:06] Mandy Smith: Just one sec.

[00:37:06] Cyd Holsclaw: about your book. Although I can't find a copy of our book either, so I'm the same way, but

The Structure and Purpose of the Book

[00:37:12] Geoff Holsclaw: while she's going to grab that, say, can you just talk about really quick, uh, the structure of the book or the each confession? Cause it, there's like a clear kind of structure and why, cause people might be curious about that.

[00:37:24] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. It's a very clear structure. Uh, you know, there, there's this introduction of why confession is important. Um, Mandy actually starts that section saying, I confess, I confess, I don't believe in God. Uh, but clearly as you've listened to her talking, you know, she clearly believes in God. So she sort of unpacks what she means by that.

Um, and then the way that the chapters are all divided is these different, uh, chapters. Struggles that you're struggling with Mandy. So there's, I want to be in control. I want to force miracles. I want to know outcomes. I want to feel successful. I want to be free. I want to feel strong. I want to give up.

And then within each of those sections, you're telling a story from the Bible about someone in the Bible who felt that urge. Um, and then you're also sharing. Stories, uh, about your own struggles and then offering a confession after each of those. And so the one that I was hoping you would read for us, um, is in the section of I want to be in control.

Reading a Confession: Indignant

[00:38:26] Cyd Holsclaw: So it's in chapter two and I would love for you to read indignant on page 40.

[00:38:33] Mandy Smith: Okay, but I might cry.

[00:38:34] Cyd Holsclaw: That's okay. I'll pick up where you leave off if you start crying too hard, but I think this one is so, it's so demonstrating. What you're talking about, about sharing appropriately and when, when you're choosing to speak and how you're choosing to speak.

[00:38:49] Mandy Smith: So these confessions, just so you know, there's kind of a two Cyded kind of confession happening. One of them is just confessing where I am, confessing my desire for self sufficiency. And the second is confessing my faith again. So it's a choice. So I hope you see that turning. Okay, here it is.

[00:39:07] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah.

[00:39:08] Mandy Smith: How dare he? He's afraid. When will he? I love him. Change him. Change how you see him. I don't like the way God answers my prayers. Through the mouth of Jesus, God said people were like whitewashed tombs, called them a brood of vipers. And through the prophets he had even harsher language for his people. And at the same time on the cross Jesus said, Father forgive them for they don't know what they're doing.

I don't know the difference. When to challenge, when to have compassion. I get the feeling that Jesus words of challenge were never just to vent or protect himself, but in hopes that people would return to God. Guardrails, rumble strips, keeping them from a greater danger. I don't usually have any interest in being a rumble strip to protect the safety of the person who has wronged me.

I just want to protect myself from them, because this person didn't think before he spoke, now I have to spend hours in prayer thinking before I speak. God, if there is a way you want him to grow from seeing the harm he's done, may I let him see the harm, but not for my own sake. If there is a way you want me to keep the harm to myself this time to let it die in me, to teach me your kind of death, let it be.

Amen. I'm remembering the person that's about and the situation behind it.

[00:40:31] Cyd Holsclaw: Well, and I, that one just feels so, um, especially that statement that you make because this person didn't think before he spoke. Now I have to spend hours in prayer thinking before I speak. And that is such a good picture of how I have always known you to be Mandy, which is wrestling with God.

about whether it's appropriate to share the vulnerability or if it's just for your own sake that you want to air or vent. Um, and I have always seen great wisdom in you in doing that. Um, and then I, the way that you invite us to enter into our own confession, right. It was like, cause I love the way at every, After every single one of your confessions, you have questions and then space with lines, uh, for us to write our own confessions.

And so that one, how do you feel indignant? Confess your desire to force the situation that you'd prefer. And then how can you choose to believe that God can be the source of what you actually need, even if you don't fully feel or understand that belief? Um, and then those being the prompts for people to write their own confessions of indignant, uh, Cause that's such an easy emotion to get to, right?

That sense of like, Oh, as anybody who's in Christian ministry knows what it's like to have thoughtless words thrown at you, um, and to feel that reaction, I don't know, you know, or anybody in our lives, not just Christian people in Christian, I mean, anybody who's married, anybody who has good friends, anybody who has children, um, having insensitive and thoughtless words thrown at you.

That feels so unjust and so wrong, um, and the way that you wrestle

[00:42:20] Mandy Smith: it's, it's tricky because in Christian leadership, there is a way that we are called to just suck it up and be like Jesus and, and bear things. But there's also a way that we're supposed to be like Jesus in the sense of saying, that's not appropriate. You know, you are behaving in a way that doesn't represent who God is.

And so that process, I think in this particular situation, I did that, that processing and praying. And I. And I, there were some things that I let die so that it wouldn't become a personal affront. But there was a way as the leader of this community that I still needed to say, whether you're speaking to me or anybody this way, it's just not okay anymore.

This is not going to work anymore. Um, and it didn't, after lots of prayer and journaling and confessing, it didn't come from a place of, you heard my feelings, you know, it came from a place of, I have a calling Speak on behalf of this community and the needs of our mission here. And this is going to be undermining our mission if you keep behaving this way.

But it took a lot of prayer and a lot of confessing to even discern like, what is mine to just swallow? What is mine to. You know, let them feel the pain of themselves, you know, so that's hard, but Jesus did both of those things. Jesus sucked it up and Jesus challenged and something good came from that.

But yeah, we do so imperfectly, I guess.

[00:43:41] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Yeah. 

Final Thoughts and Reflections

[00:43:43] Cyd Holsclaw: Well, so that is a taste of what you will get if you read this beautiful book that Mandy wrote, which I highly recommend. Not just because I like Mandy and we're friends, but because it's a really good book and it's really important. Um, and as she describes, as you describe Mandy,

[00:44:01] Mandy Smith: That's okay. I get it.

[00:44:03] Cyd Holsclaw: listeners at the same time, which is a little weird.

You get it. Um. Yeah. Yeah. You had written in the instruction, I need to watch ordinary leaders who feel the fear and choose God once more. I want to witness the moment they choose to need something beyond their own small selves. And that is what you have given us in this book, is the opportunity to see those moments as you confess, this is what I want, this is what I'm feeling, this is what's going on.

But then as you write out your confession, we get to see the moment. That you're choosing again to believe in the one who is outCyde of you, the one who gives you your life and the one through which all life flows and to, to choose again to not be self sufficient. Um, so I just personally want to say, thank you.

Thank you for this beautiful book. And it's small people listeners. It's not that many pages, but

[00:45:00] Mandy Smith: And there's pictures. So

[00:45:03] Cyd Holsclaw: And there's pictures and there's lines to write in. Yeah.

[00:45:07] Mandy Smith: um,

[00:45:08] Geoff Holsclaw: So Mandy, if people want to stay connected with you, uh, where can they, uh, follow you or online or, uh,

[00:45:15] Cyd Holsclaw: Actually, hold on. I'm sorry. Before we get to that, can I ask the one question that I heard? So we went to Chuck DeGroat's book opening at Baker Book House, um, the other, on the same day as yours, actually your books had the same birthday. Um, and someone asked him this brilliant question that now I want to ask you was, Okay, if someone has just made themselves a cup of coffee and sat down in their favorite chair and has your book, and they're about to open the book, what would you want to say to them?

[00:45:46] Mandy Smith: Um, watch out. don't, it doesn't feel that scary to me, but so many people, like the first, like some of the endorsements are like, holy moly, one person said. And, um, I think it was, um, Mike Frost said, this is scary, scary, good. So like, it's just my story. So it doesn't feel that scary to me, but a lot of people are saying that kind of thing of like, what have you done to us, Mandy?

You know, so maybe that person who's just sat down with a coffee is going to be like, maybe I won't pick this one up. But there are pictures, like I said, there are pictures to break up the intensity and they're done. And, and maybe I would also say like, it's the, there's an intro and there's a summary at the end.

And that's helpful to, to place, to place what we're about to do. But I also, Like I made it so you can read the whole book front to back, but you also can read it one confession at a time. Um, and I, and I named them according to the experience I had that prompted the confession so that you might say, Oh yeah, I'm feeling this right now.

I'm going to just go to that confession. So a person with your coffee, you can just flip through and read one confession and put the book down. It's not, you know, don't worry. You can just have a bit of a little nibble at a time.

[00:47:02] Cyd Holsclaw: yeah. And that's, I mean, that's how I experienced it. I didn't read it all at once cover to cover. And even when I was sitting on the plane, you know, as I'm reading it, I would read for a minute and then just kind of like put it down, put it back in the seat pocket.

[00:47:14] Mandy Smith: of people are telling me that like they want to take their time with

[00:47:17] Cyd Holsclaw: But then I would find, yeah, but then I would find myself going back to it and just wanting more of, um, just the

[00:47:26] Mandy Smith: That's my prayer, that it would be a friend. Yeah, most of my books I write because I wish someone had written them for me. Yeah.

[00:47:33] Cyd Holsclaw: Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. Now you can answer the

[00:47:36] Mandy Smith: Oh yes, okay. So, um, the book is sold in any good bookshop. I always like to promote Hearts and Minds books. They do, it's a ministry. Of book selling, um, but also in the other bookstore. Um, the, I am on Instagram and Facebook, um, at Mandy Smith hopes. And my website is the way is the way. org. I think I should know that.

I think it's. org. Oh, goodness. That's not very good. Is it? I'm just going to look at it now.

[00:48:06] Cyd Holsclaw: Geoff it in the show notes.

[00:48:07] Mandy Smith: org.

[00:48:08] Cyd Holsclaw: Geoff will it in the

[00:48:09] Mandy Smith: so yeah, I have a little bit of a blog there and some art there in my other books there and things like that. So, um, those are the main ways to find me.

[00:48:19] Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. And thank you so, so much for being with us today, um, all the way from Australia and, um, starting the day with

[00:48:29] Mandy Smith: Yeah. What a good way to start the day.

[00:48:32] Cyd Holsclaw: Um, it's just, yeah, it's always a joy to be with

[00:48:35] Mandy Smith: Good to be with you guys too. 

Um,