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Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation
Attaching to God connects relational neuroscience and attachment theory to our life of faith so you can grow into spiritual and relational maturity. Co-host Geoff Holsclaw (PhD, pastor, and professor) and Cyd Holsclaw (PCC, spiritual director, and integrative coach) talk with practitioners, therapists, theologians, and researchers on learning to live with ourselves, others, and God. Get everything in your inbox or on the app: https://www.grassrootschristianity.org/s/embodied-faith
Attaching to God: Neuroscience-informed Spiritual Formation
(Bonus) 10 Reasons Baseball is Spiritual Formation (with J.R. Briggs)
Baseball is back. Spring is sprung (depending on where you live). And so we are bringing you the 10 reasons baseball is a mirror for our spiritual formation.
And along the way, Geoff and J.R. Briggs share some favorite baseball memories, especially about their first time hanging out in the bleachers at Wigley Field.
Here are the reasons, in no particular order:
- Going Home
- All about Failures
- It's Boring
- It starts in the spring (of NEW LIFE)
- Teamwork
- Routines
- Tradition
- The Cathedrals of Baseball
- The Hall of Fame
- and I forgot the last one...
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Introduction and Guest Introduction
[00:00:14] Geoff Holsclaw: What does baseball have to do with spiritual formation? It is opening day for baseball today, and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna get my good friend J.R. Briggs on to talk about spiritual formation in baseball. I just reached out to him like yesterday. I, I was like, Hey, I. We gotta do this podcast episode for opening day.
He said Okay. I didn't even like write down his bio to introduce him 'cause I usually introduce my guests 'cause I'm such a professional but not today. So J.R. Could you just introduce yourself briefly, who you are and what you do, and then we're gonna be off and running and talking about the top 10 reasons why baseball is like the journey of spiritual formation.
Who are you?
[00:00:53] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, man. Thanks Geoff. Good to be with you all. And, um, yeah. So I am a, a husband, I'm a father, I'm a church planter. Uh, and now I am the founding director of an organization called Kairos Partnerships that helps leaders through coaching, consulting, spiritual formation. And I'm also a baseball fan, which is why when you reached out, Geoff, I'm like, heck yes, we have to do this.
This would be great. So, looking forward to this conversation.
Memorable Baseball Experiences
[00:01:19] Geoff Holsclaw: So for a little bit of context, uh, of our kind of immediate situation is J.R. Maybe, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago was in Chicago. When I was in Chicago, uh, doing I think a genesis church planning training. And then, and I spoke into it just a little bit and I think Sid was helping out with it a little bit more.
And then you were, I don't even know what happened. You're like, Hey. Geoff, we're going to Wrigley tonight. I was like, okay. And then you had tickets to the, the bleachers before they were renovated? They were a little less, uh, they're pretty swanky right now, like the post, uh, 20 14, 20 15, uh, this was before the Cubs won the World Series and you were like, let's go.
And I'd never been to the bleachers. We'd always sat up in the stands,
[00:02:01] J.R. Briggs: Yeah.
[00:02:02] Geoff Holsclaw: teeths in the upper deck. So what was your first experience there? The bleachers,
[00:02:07] J.R. Briggs: Well, I, and I've. Yes, I, and I'm not a, I'm not a Cubs fan, but I'm a baseball fan and I've loved my time going to Wrigley and like you, I've just sat in the main, the main stands, but I've always wanted to sit in the bleachers and people said it's a completely different experience technically, even though I was helping out with that church planter training with you all.
I was technically on sabbatical, and so part of the emphasis of my sabbatical was to go to. Several major and minor league baseball stadiums and games with my family or by myself. And so if I'm in a new city, I'm going, Hey, let's, let's, let's hit a place, you know, let's, let's go to a game. You're a big baseball fan, you're a Cubs fan.
And I said, let's do it. You hooked us up with some great parking, a friend of a friend at some church I remember,
[00:02:54] Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, that's right. Okay.
[00:02:55] J.R. Briggs: yeah, and then we were in left center field. I just remember thinking this is an amazing way to spend a sabbatical night with a good dude and great food, and great drink and great game in a great stadium.
It was amazing. And if I remember right, Geoff. They hadn't won the World Series, but I think either the night before our night or the next night, they had clinched a playoff spot. I think this was the year before they won the World Series. So the energy, yeah, the energy was just so palpable because it was the first time the Cubs had clenched in a long time.
So what do you remember from that time?
Spiritual Formation and Baseball
[00:03:32] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I remember, so we had been, and this actually does fit into our spiritual formation kind of church thing, because I'd been to Wrigley and other baseball, uh, stadiums, like in the, you know, where you pay and you have your seat, it's an assigned seat, and you kind of shuffle past some people and they're all there for their thing.
And then you're there for your thing and you have the three people you came with and you know, and you kind of ignore people except for when you pass beer or hot dogs down. Right? But. That's kind of the typical experience in the regular seating, but in the bleachers it's kind of like there's this like, total change and tell me what you experience.
Like, oh, we're all family, we're all in this together. There's not really assigned seating. You kind of just find, and it's just a bench. It's like old school, like benches, like at a high school game or something like that where the stadium seating and you just show up and you're kind of squeaking by and you're squeezing butts in and um, and so that, and, and then you're kind of taunting the other teams outfielders.
[00:04:23] J.R. Briggs: The left fielder we were.
[00:04:25] Geoff Holsclaw: And then it's kind of like the right, uh, you kind of are taunting the other, so we were in left field and then the right field, and you're chanting from right field to left field. So it was this totally different crowd communal experience, which I was not expecting.
[00:04:39] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, and I'm not a Cubs fan, but that night you better believe I was a Cubs fan and felt fully embraced into the Cubs family. It was so fun. There's no way I was gonna root against the Cubs, if I remember right. I think it was the Brewers and, and, uh, just. It was so, yeah, family was the word that comes to mind when I think about that experience.
Ho home runs extra, base hits. You're a high FIV and you're hugging strangers around you. It's a different experience. I now understood when people said, oh, the bleachers are like watching a different C, it's a different Cubs experience. Didn't really get it until that night, and I'm not sure I wanna sit in the regular stands anymore.
It was so much fun.
[00:05:18] Geoff Holsclaw: have recently, but yeah, we gotta go back. Um, and this will go into some of our 10 reasons why baseball, uh, connects with spiritual formation. But there is, uh, just for those of you who don't know, at Wrigley Field, there's a tradition where if the opposing team hits a home run into the bleachers, you throw the ball back.
That is not a souvenir. You keep, you throw it back. And so that was kind of fun where you. You
[00:05:40] J.R. Briggs: Yes, and remember the cup snake. The cup snake was super long, and we're
[00:05:45] Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, yeah. So you get these giant beer cups and then like when you're done, you, you put it in a giant
[00:05:50] J.R. Briggs: hundreds and hundreds of cups that you're just helping people add to it and move it around. It looks like a giant snake. I.
[00:05:56] Geoff Holsclaw: So this isn't a top 10, but this is like 10 reasons. I think we have 10. I might have miscounted. So we're gonna do like five. And then I want to hear, uh, one of your favorite baseball memories. Mine is, is kind of embarrassing. It's not actually a favorite, it's just one of the most impactful. Um, and then we'll finish off the fir the last, so.
We kind of hinted on it. I'm gonna steal the first one. Why is baseball so pertinent to spiritual formation? Because the whole point of the game is you're trying to get back home. You start at home, you try to do some things, and you have to run around the base as you go through the course of your life, but you're trying to get back home and you have a family cheering you on and helping you out as best as they can.
But it's the same spiritual formation, discipleship life with God is that we're trying to come back home. We're entering into a new family. Father God is calling us home, brother Jesus is cheering us on and the spirit is empowering us as we go. And so that's why baseball is the greatest example of sports for our spiritual formation.
What do you think?
[00:06:55] J.R. Briggs: Yes. Actually I wrote about this in, in one of my books In the
[00:06:58] Geoff Holsclaw: I know you,
[00:06:59] J.R. Briggs: about joy.
[00:07:00] Geoff Holsclaw: that from you when we were sitting in the stands.
[00:07:02] J.R. Briggs: no, it was, it's one of the things I love about About it is I heard about a guy, I don't even remember his name, and I think I quoted him in the book about he actually collected walk-off home runs. Pictures of them.
Because when you look at joy of all these people who are waiting at home for their teammate to circle third and head for home, and some of those pictures, you could just do a Google search for walk-off home runs. And the joy of these, these grownups acting like little kids, like they're back in little league and just sometimes it's like almost.
Brings me to tears of like, that's the father when we come back home. Like there's joy in heaven. You know, when even one sinner repent, as Jesus says, there's joy in heaven. And that idea of waiting around home plate and dousing them with food or dumping, you know, pieces of gum or dumping, you know, the seeds on their head or whatever it might be like that is so redemptive.
So I'm so glad you started with that one. I totally agree.
[00:08:02] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, so it was like the prodigal son coming back home. There's a great celebration. There's a feast, there's a festival. You start singing, there's music, there's anthems. So for those of you who don't know, who don't follow baseball, a walk off home run effectively ends the game and the team that hit it wins.
And so since, and the runner has to go around the bases, but since the game is effectively over, the whole team runs out and waits for them at home plate for them to return home, to end the game with a victory. Okay, so not as happy.
The Role of Failure in Baseball and Spirituality
[00:08:31] Geoff Holsclaw: But it's still very connected and, and you have a lot to say about this, I know, is that baseball actually, uh, has built into it a lot of failure.
Now, why does failure, uh, what does that have to do with baseball, but also spiritual formation?
[00:08:47] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, the idea of grace, right? Like we,
[00:08:49] Geoff Holsclaw: And you wrote a book about this so you know, you could promote the book. That's okay.
[00:08:53] J.R. Briggs: well, but just the, we've all experienced failure, but like what does it mean to live a life where we actually learn from our failures and there's redemption and grace in the midst of it? And so, I mean, just you and I, I think we even talked about it that night in the bleachers, Geoff, but the idea that like if you fail only. Seven out of 10 times at bat. You do that over your career. You're in the Hall of Fame, you have a 300 career batting average, and only one or two people in history have averaged only failing, failing six out of 10 times. On average throughout their career. That's crazy. Any other field, business, education, whatever, like there's no way anybody would do that.
But that's the idea of failure and what do we, how do we learn from failure? And when a player's going over 30. And trying to get out of a slump. Like what do you, what do you do in that? How do you encourage your teammates, right? And so this idea of like, we are failures, right? That's the idea of confession and repentance is we start by admitting we are failures and that we can't save ourselves and there's something greater than us that will save us.
And so that idea of not flaunting our failure, not falling into despair, but of realizing our admission of our failure through confession and repentance is what? Ushers us in to experience that grace and mercy of Jesus that's available to us. So what about you? How, how have you seen this idea of failure and spiritual formation?
[00:10:18] Geoff Holsclaw: you just. Like now that we're like talking about it. So, um, a 70% failure rate is considered successful. I was just thinking through TRO and some other, the, the baby watcher kind of neuroscientists and they talk about attunement and relational attunement and they say that we are misattuned with people 70% of the
[00:10:38] J.R. Briggs: Fascinating.
[00:10:40] Geoff Holsclaw: and that, that, that is not a problem.
What is the problem is when you don't have the repairs. And so there, you know, that we're, we're rupture sounds very extreme right, but we're misattuned and then the whole process of a good relationship is being able to come back on the same page and become attuned and so, so yeah, we're out of tune with people, you know, a lot of the majority of the time.
And then what? And then the Christian life, I think in the spiritual practices, forget. Like that. You say confession, forgiveness, uh, repentance, but also, you know, seeking love and good works and things is that repair process.
[00:11:09] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, that's good.
[00:11:11] Geoff Holsclaw: we're just continually working on that and you can't take that failure to heart.
Um, you just have to keep going. You just have to keep showing up.
[00:11:17] J.R. Briggs: Yeah.
[00:11:18] Geoff Holsclaw: Um, these, again, these are not in order. If I spent more time, I like would've built a thematic kind of thing 'cause I love those logical, linear things. But another one. Okay. And this was me growing up 'cause I played baseball, but it was, for me, it was so boring. It was so boring. I didn't, my parents made me play baseball in the spring just to get me outta the house and make me run
[00:11:38] J.R. Briggs: Is that right?
[00:11:39] Geoff Holsclaw: much, I was much more of the fall soccer, like we played in California. It was. Soccer in the fall, baseball in the spring. But I did not like baseball. It was so boring, so much standing around, unless you're the pitcher, I guess.
Uh, and, and I hated being the catcher, but it was so boring. And people say that to you a lot like, oh, if you know, it's so boring. What would you say to those who say that baseball is boring and how does it connect to our spiritual life?
The Slow Pace of Baseball and Spiritual Life
[00:12:00] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, I actually, uh, jolt them a little bit. When they say, it's so boring, they're expecting me to say, no, it's not. It's so exciting. I go, you're right, it is. And they're like, what? Why do you like it? And I say, because so much of life, even the Christian life is not a highlight reel of fireworks all the time.
It's instead life faithful. Life and faithful life in the kingdom is just faithfully living into the everyday ordinary elements of life. Inviting Jesus into those. And so is there a walk off home run? Yes. Are there double plays and you know, great hits of course, but that's just a fraction of the time that's there.
So much of it is showing up, being a good teammate, cheering your teammates on. And I think so much of life is that of just like I'm going to faithfully fulfill my responsibilities and my role in what I'm doing most of my life. And your life, Geoff and everyone else listening is not a highlight reel. It is just faithfully learning to plot through and trust Jesus in the everyday ordinary moments of our lives.
And so, yeah, to me that is what makes it. Somewhat boring, and I put that in air quotes, boring. But also before we were recording, um, before we press record, I, I mentioned like during sabbatical. That was one of the main reasons because I'm a type A driven person. I need governors put on me to make sure that I don't exceed certain speeds.
And baseball makes me go, I'm not in a rush. Just enter into the flow of this game. And that quote unquote, boringness actually helps slow me down. And it's good for my soul, right? Like the speed of godliness is slow. And so if I can just enter into that slow pace in a world that's so frenetic and fast, I think baseball, they're trying to speed it up with the pitch clock as we know.
But. It actually is one of the few spaces in our lives where it actually slowing down in the sport is can be a superpower or can be so rare to rise above the noise of everything being faster, better, louder, busier. And so that's why I like it. And, uh. That's what my wife says. She's like, I like going to games.
I don't like watching 'em on tv 'cause they're too boring on tv. And I say, okay. But on a good Saturday afternoon, it's just good to, preferably in person. But even listening to it on the radio slows me down when I'm in the car.
[00:14:25] Geoff Holsclaw: Oh yeah, for sure. Many years. I listened to Ron Santon with Pat Hughes
[00:14:29] J.R. Briggs: That's right. Yeah.
[00:14:30] Geoff Holsclaw: on the WGN Network. Um, I forget what the radio station was back then. Um, but yeah, just the, the slow, the monotony of it. Um, and in a sense of routine, we're gonna get into the routines, uh, uh, as one of our other points, but, um. I think it's, it's kind of this, especially if you play it, but even when you're, you're kind of watching is there's this combination of it being slow and boring, but you also have to pay attention. Uh, and of course for legal reasons, you know, they extended the nets on first base and second and third base for foul balls and things like that.
But, you know, but also for the players, you know. Nothing's happening and anything could happen and you need to be ready. And so there is this combination of attentiveness, you know, 'cause
[00:15:13] J.R. Briggs: I like that. Yeah.
[00:15:15] Geoff Holsclaw: do talk about watchfulness and attentiveness as like kind of these key things.
[00:15:19] J.R. Briggs: Yeah. And even though it's quote unquote boring and slow, but of, of at the same time. Yeah. Like the spirit can do anything at any time. And so that idea of watchfulness and attentiveness, I'm so glad you brought that in. It has to be both at the same time. That's really good.
'cause one Aaron foul ball, if I'm not looking I might get clunked cl clunked in the head, you know? So That's a great point, Geoff.
[00:15:40] Geoff Holsclaw: Or that broken bat spinning off into the stands. Man, you gotta be ready.
Spring: A Time of Renewal in Baseball and Faith
[00:15:44] Geoff Holsclaw: So, uh, the last one before we have our seventh inning stretch is, uh, the spring, the spring of new life. So every spring, baseball starts over. Every team has a winning chance. All your, your rookies and your call-ups, you know, and you're giving someone a chance.
Uh, everyone is healthy usually. Um, that there's this, it's like the only sport where there's this combination of the season starting, at least in the Northern hemisphere and, you know, work. Getting out of the cold, we're getting out of the snow, we're getting out of the rain. Spring has sprung, new life is here.
So it's kind of that resurrection, uh, moment that I know, you know, baseball's on the, on the television. You know, I also have to think about yard work, which is not always my favorite, but it's the new life. I love it.
[00:16:28] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, no, totally agree. I love that. We practice, uh, lent and then Easter, uh, resurrection Sunday, sort of as the weather's turning in the Northern Hemisphere. And then the other side too. The World Series ends, right when it's. Getting colder, right? So it's a little bit of a sort of rising up and then and sort of ending at the same time.
And so yeah. What is it? Hope Spring's eternal. Everyone thinks their team during spring training is gonna win the World Series and that is a palpable hope around every single club, major League Baseball Club. They feel that hope this could be our year, you know? And I think there's something powerful to that.
[00:17:04] Geoff Holsclaw: last year for U Cubs fans. You know, this, our, our hope lasted about three innings until Justin Steele, our ace pitcher on a routine kind of, uh, ground ball over to first base, like. Pulled an, I forget, a hammy or I rolled an ankle. It was, and he was out for half the season. It was like so heartbreaking.
I was such a bummer. Okay, so that was the first top five. We're gonna interrupt this.
Personal Baseball Memories
[00:17:27] Geoff Holsclaw: What is one of your most memorable or crazy baseball in a stadium experiences? I.
[00:17:33] J.R. Briggs: Yeah. Well, I'm a big Phillies fan because I'm here in the Philadelphia area, and I don't even, you may, you may not know this Geoff, but I was asked to actually be the Phillies chaplain a few years ago, and, uh, just out of schedule, had to turn it down, but talk about spiritual formation and baseball matching together.
That would've been.
[00:17:50] Geoff Holsclaw: have Kyle Schwarber over there. Come on, you
[00:17:53] J.R. Briggs: That would've been really fun. That would've been really fun. But, um, but I actually, it's a long story, but I had a friend call me when the Phillies were in the World Series in 2022 against the Astros, and I love going to Citizens Bank Park, the home of the Philadelphia Phillies, and he said, Hey, I have a free World Series ticket.
If you'd like to sit next to me, I would love to have you. And I said, let me pray about the yes, yes, of course. And, uh, so we did it and it was great. I mean, amazing to be there for World Series. I mean, so amped up. The only problem was, Geoff, that was the day that the Astros in Game four through a combined no-hitter.
Against the Phillies in the World Series. So other than the starting lineups, there literally was no other reason for us to use our rally towels that were given out to us, to every fan when they walked in. It was brutal of like so grateful to go to the World Series. That is a hot ticket in Philly.
Everybody wants it. Very expensive. I got it free from a friend and nothing to cheer for. So that is, that is my, that is my historic, meaningful, memorable, but devastating. World Series moment. How about you? You have
[00:19:05] Geoff Holsclaw: So I was, uh, young.
A Memorable First Baseball Game
[00:19:08] Geoff Holsclaw: First time I went to a baseball game, the San Francisco Giants in the old candlestick, uh, park where the 49 ERs and the Giants used to both, uh, play at way back in the day. And, um, I was there. This was Ken Griffey J.R.'s rookie year.
[00:19:26] J.R. Briggs: Wow.
[00:19:28] Geoff Holsclaw: I had the new, um, upper deck baseball line, like it was this new line.
I had his rookie card,
[00:19:36] J.R. Briggs: Wow.
[00:19:38] Geoff Holsclaw: I was like a giant fan. He was playing with the
[00:19:40] J.R. Briggs: can picture that card.
[00:19:41] Geoff Holsclaw: there. I don't even know how, I don't even know how this like got scheduled. I'm just like, you know, you're a little kid. You just get shuffled around, right? We're at this baseball game. So, uh, okay.
Not, I'm trying not to share too much for especially the female listeners, but, um, you know, I'm a guy, I've peed in urinals as a kid before, but you go to a baseball stadium, I'm a little kid. I had to pee. I've never peed in basically a giant trough. It's an open
[00:20:09] J.R. Briggs: The old trough.
[00:20:10] Geoff Holsclaw: the guys know what you're, what, you know, this giant, and I, I got this
[00:20:15] J.R. Briggs: Stage fright.
[00:20:17] Geoff Holsclaw: Yes, that is what
[00:20:18] J.R. Briggs: fright. Yeah.
[00:20:20] Geoff Holsclaw: what happened. So I go in, I go out, nothing has changed. I waited out two more innings and I am dying. I was like, I guess I'm just gonna have to figure. So I go back in. I finally, you know, I'm able to work things out. The whole stadium erupts. Ken Griffey J.R..
Hit a home run and I was in the bathroom for the second time and I missed the home run, and I had his rookie card. It was so horrible.
[00:20:52] J.R. Briggs: That is a great story.
[00:20:54] Geoff Holsclaw: I don't know how to make that into a spiritual formation lesson, but it was, that was heartbreaking. Okay, so back to the, the top 10 reasons. Second, or number six.
Teamwork and Spiritual Formation
[00:21:05] Geoff Holsclaw: Teamwork. How does teamwork exemplify our life and spiritual formation from
[00:21:11] J.R. Briggs: It's fascinating 'cause baseball, you know, it's not like basketball where like everybody is on the field at the same time doing, doing their role. Like, yes, of course when you're on defense, when you're out in the field, but when you're a batter, you're the only one in. The batter's box. So you're doing it for yourself, but you're doing it for your team together.
But out in the field, if one person makes an error, it lets down everybody else. And in baseball, each one of those errors adds up. It's so important. It's not like in the NBA with 130 points scored each night could be one, nothing. And that error makes a difference. But the idea of teammates. How often do you hear a post-game interview where they say, man, my teammates picked me up.
Or, when I failed, they came and they, they delivered even though I, I wasn't doing so well or the encouragement that my hitting coach came over and whispered something to me, so much of it is mental, right? What is 90% of it is mental, the other half is physical, said Yogi Berra. And I just think that idea of like, we've got to be, you know, relief pitchers.
How many pitchers go the full nine innings anymore? Hardly ever like they used to do in the sixties and the seventies. And so this idea of like, we need everybody involved. Uh, one of my favorite stories with the Phillies this past year is actually not our catcher, although JT Ro Mito is my favorite Phillies player.
It's the backup catcher, and Stubbs is his name. And, uh, everybody loves Stubby and the reason being is he hardly plays, but he is the heart and soul of the team. And so Stubbs, anytime he would, uh, cheer for his teammates or, um, he, he was in charge of the clubhouse music mix. And he was like the dj and everyone said like, Stubbs is our, is our favorite guy on the team.
And so that to me is just an example of how important, um, Garrett Stubbs was to the team. And we, we need everybody involved, everybody involved, teammates, you've gotta be able to work with your teammates, or baseball does not work.
[00:23:13] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, for sure.
The Importance of Routines
[00:23:14] Geoff Holsclaw: And then it's similar to that is, uh, routines is so, uh, number, number seven is the routines of baseball. And it kind of goes back to it being boring. And the failure is that, uh, and the mindfulness is that I think the mindset of a baseball player, just because there is so much downtime, um, that.
And, and people getting called off the bench and designated hitters, you know, and people are relief pitchers like you, you just have to be ready, but you're also waiting. And then the routines is kind of, I think what, what bridges that, the readiness and the waiting is your routines. The preparation routines, the routines in between innings.
Um, taking some batting practice, um, doing your, your outfield, infield, uh, practice, even doing your bunting routines and uh, reviewing the signs and things like always. It's all the stuff that you do in advance. And I, and I know, um, all sports kind of have that for sure, but it, it does seem that baseball has this special kind of place, you know, and you could even call them rituals, right?
A lot of rituals. And, and there's a lot of superstition. I, I know other sports have superstition, but I think baseball players have quite a bit of superstition that's related to their routines. If I'm in a slump, uh, I gotta change something. If I'm not, if I'm, you know, on a hot streak, then we gotta keep everything the same and the.
You know, and I think there is something, uh, a little bit about that, uh, for our spiritual life.
[00:24:34] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, for sure. I mean, to me, when I think about this idea of routines and rhythms. Some players like to get there really early, you know, and they say, I'm gonna jog at, you know, 1 55 for a four o'clock game, you know, and then I come back and do 10 minutes of this, and I've always, I'm stretching and doing this, taking 200 cuts in the batting cage before we get started.
To me, that's, those are spiritual disciplines and spiritual practices that keep us grounded. Right? And they may not do it for spiritual reasons, but I think about the idea of routines, like almost like a rule of life. You know, they wouldn't call it that, but baseball players have a rule of life. What they will eat, when they will stretch, when they will even talk to their teammates.
Long toss, short toss, warm up in the bullpen before a game if you're a starting pitcher. So that idea of spiritual disciplines or spiritual habits, um, a rule of life. So important to our formation. We don't just show up and just say like, Hey, I'm gonna do this thing. There are just healthy, grounding spiritual disciplines to engage in that don't, it doesn't earn us grace, which is an oxymoron.
It actually opens our lives up to be used more by God and to experience his grace in our lives that much more. And so. The Gospel's, uh, not against work, it's against earning as Dallas Willard says. And so, but we put ourselves in a position by engaging in spiritual disciplines or rule of life, so that's what I, I love those.
Yeah.
[00:26:02] Geoff Holsclaw: It's such a long season that you need those routines that even when you're feeling out of it, your whole team's on a losing streak or you are like, those routines kind of just help bridge that. It's just the length of the season. Um, whereas other sports, you know, uh, it it's, it's pretty different.
Um, so, okay.
Traditions in Baseball and Faith
[00:26:21] Geoff Holsclaw: So now we're gonna kind of get a little bit more meta, uh, but tell us about the traditions of baseball. How is that like spiritual formation for our number eight reason?
[00:26:32] J.R. Briggs: yeah. So the idea of traditions I, you know. Some baseball stadiums have been called cathedrals, which I find it very interesting. In fact, there's a book called Green Cathedrals on Twitter. There was a, uh, Twitter handle that I followed, uh, for a while called um, or X or whatever it's called now, cathedrals of Baseball.
And it just featured old photographs of. Major league baseball stadiums and, but so there's traditions of uniform and logo and um, even the unwritten rules of baseball and how they exist. Uh, I just noticed that, uh, Comerica Park, where the Tigers play, used to have a strip since it's the beginning from the pitchers mound to home plate, like a, a dirt strip.
And it was used to do that in old stadiums. It's the only one now. This year they just decided to make it all grass. There's no strip anymore. Yes,
[00:27:21] Geoff Holsclaw: rid of it.
[00:27:22] J.R. Briggs: And everyone's up in arms. Why? Because tradition matters in baseball, and that's why people love a field of dreams and the natural and all these things because tradition, we think about, oh, my grandfather took me to my to to a game when I was a kid.
Or you were a kid at Candlestick Park. Like, or throwing. The ball playing catch in the backyard with dad. Like these are just the tradition of that, of going, man, now I bring my kids to games and maybe one day I'll bring my, my grandkids to games. Those sorts of things is why tradition, I think of all of the sports tradition matters the most with baseball because it's so grounds us in relationship and nostalgia.
Of previous generations and connects us to future generations. And I think the same thing with the church. If we think that Christianity was invented in 1983, uh, because we sing songs or do things that have only been quote unquote invented or done since 1983, we miss out on the rich traditions of the shoulders of men and women who we stand upon, who have gone before us, and great church fathers and mothers, and learning from the Desert Fathers and the reformers enriches our faith.
I. Even more just like we love reading about baseball history helps us love baseball present and baseball future even more.
[00:28:39] Geoff Holsclaw: It doesn't mean that there's not open innovation. You know, there's like a
[00:28:43] J.R. Briggs: Yeah.
[00:28:44] Geoff Holsclaw: movement to statistics and, you know, launch angle a couple years ago and you know, strikeouts on base percentage. You know, there's a whole, uh, Moneyball.
[00:28:55] J.R. Briggs: Even robo Umps that they're testing out, right? I mean that's, that's weird. Robo Umps where they're like, yeah, trying to figure out like you can, you can now challenge if it's a ball or a strike now and you see it on the video board, like that is crazy to baseball purists.
[00:29:10] Geoff Holsclaw: But there is a sense though, 'cause in a lot of sports, um, especially football, especially basketball, it was when you, when you compare like the great teams of today to like. 20 and then certainly 30 years ago, everyone's like, the game is totally different now. The game, like basketball's a three point shooting, uh, the role of the big man, like all this, it's totally different now.
Mj, LeBron, blah, blah, blah, right? And then the role of, uh, offenses, uh, in football and the quarterback and all this stuff. Um, but baseball's not like it hasn't changed that much. Like you can, you know, like what, a hundred years ago they lowered the. The mound. And then, uh, and then certainly, you know, 60 years ago they integrated, uh, so they had the, the Negro leagues and the white leagues.
You know, so people are like, was Babe Ruth really? You know, playing against the best people, you know, that's so that's valid. But besides that, you're like, well, what Now we have a pitch clock.
[00:29:59] J.R. Briggs: Yeah. Yeah. We banned the shift. Right. But like there's
[00:30:03] Geoff Holsclaw: Which I'm a big fan
[00:30:04] J.R. Briggs: Yes, and, and there's some tweaks, but you're right. It has remained largely the same, just like. Christianity, right? Like it's a virgin birth. It's the good news of Jesus, the son of God who came, you know, who came down in our form, who died for us, not because of our works.
I mean, the Christianity remains the same throughout history, but wrestling with the innovation piece is really important too, because, you know, some churches are, are like cutting edge, you know, 16, 34, you know, so this idea of like how, how do we. Meet people where they're at in the culture that they're in, while still having the beautiful tradition and rich history of our faith and baseball.
You know, Rob Manfred, the commissioners, trying to find where does that come into play of valuing history and tradition with innovation and change to meet the, the culture where it's at with baseball. Same thing with the church we're wrestling with, how do we do that faithfully?
[00:31:02] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, this goes into number nine then.
The Role of Minor Leagues in Development
[00:31:03] Geoff Holsclaw: I think I got a little outta order, but the innovation usually comes through the minor leagues. And so baseball has a very robust multi-leveled, leveled minor league system where they do try out some of these rule changes. They do try out some of these things, but what, how does, uh, the idea of a minor league, uh, kind of fit into our own spiritual lives?
[00:31:23] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, may, this may be my favorite of all of the ones that we've listed is this idea of the minor leagues, or what's called the farm system, right, of developing could be single aa, triple A, and then the majors, or even short season single A, and then single A double aa. But the idea of discipleship and the idea of.
We, we are developed. Um, you aren't just drafted and then you end up on a major league baseball roster and you thrive because so much of it is failure. It's learning to develop over time, develop our mechanics, develop our, uh, our batting stance, developing our speed and strength, uh, angles, um, rules, mental preparation.
And I think that's so important as we think about Second, second, Timothy two, two, and the things you've heard me say in the presence of many witnesses. Andrus, the reliable people who will teach others. Most minor league coaches are former players. Most minor league managers are former players. And this idea of passing on the tradition and doing it young and not just even developing your minor leagues and your farm system, but on top of that, um. They're trying to do a lot of youth development, right? A lot of inner city work. They're Major league baseball is pumping a lot of money into Little League now. Little League World Series is so fun to watch, but that development, you can't, baseball's too hard. You can't just decide at 18 years old, you're gonna start playing baseball and be really good and play in the majors when you're 20.
It's gotta be this development that happens over time. So this idea of dis discipleship and mentoring and building into the generation behind us, if you stop doing that in baseball. Stop developing the next generation of players. The game falls apart just like Christianity. We are one, uh, generation away from, from if we just refuse to disciple people entirely.
Christianity buckles, we, we, it depends upon discipleship in that. So, and I actually, as much as I love watching the Phillies and going to major league parks, we actually love going to Reding fight and fills, which Reding, Pennsylvania is about. An hour away from us and we love going. It's aa, they've been there since the sixties.
Mike Schmidt came up there, uh, when he was a teenager, and it is so fun to this day to do that. We love going. They're hustling, they're trying their best. They wanna make it to the next level. Um, they may not be able to field great or, you know, have the most impressive arms yet, but we love going. And part of the reason we love minor league baseball is the developmental aspect of it.
Christianity should always be in the developmental side of discipling people, especially the next generation.
[00:34:04] Geoff Holsclaw: We got, uh, several kids in our youth group who, uh, in the summers they work at the white caps, uh, stadium here in Grand Rapids, which
[00:34:11] J.R. Briggs: West Michigan. White calfs. Yeah. Yeah, baby.
[00:34:15] Geoff Holsclaw: And the, and the thing too is back to. Failure. Uh, and how do you deal with failure and learn a growth of failure? Is baseball's one of the only sports where you can make it to the major leagues and then go back to the minor leagues?
And most even the best players did that multiple times. Uh, they go in for a stint for part of a season and then they go back down to the minors ' cause they have to work on something. There's, whereas in other sports, you're kind of, you make it to the, the, the highest level and then you just stay there until you retire or you get.
You know, right. So there's this up and down and up and down, forward and back. And, and I think that's something for all of us to embrace. Like our life with Christ is not just a hundred percent movement forward all the time. Like we have lapses. We, we have to go back and relearn things again. We, we find out that we have weaknesses that we weren't aware of that we need to shore up.
[00:35:03] J.R. Briggs: Even rehab stints, right? You get injured, you go down to
[00:35:05] Geoff Holsclaw: yeah. You get injured. Yep.
[00:35:07] J.R. Briggs: and your confidence back before you come up to the Major League Club again.
[00:35:10] Geoff Holsclaw: That's, yeah. That, that could be a whole nother
[00:35:12] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, they could extra innings and then,
[00:35:15] Geoff Holsclaw: Is that purgatory, extra innings as purgatory. And we have the phantom base runner on second as a rule change. Alright.
The Journey to the Baseball Hall of Fame
[00:35:21] Geoff Holsclaw: Just to wrap this up then, and this kind of brings us back to point number one is that we're all trying to get back home.
As you had an experience just of going out to the baseball Hall of fame, uh, could you tell us just about where that is, uh, physically and how you got there and just kind of how it kind of pulled some of these things together?
[00:35:38] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, baseball Hall of Fame is in Cooperstown, New York, which is uh, in the middle of nowhere, and. From us. It's about, I think about a five hour drive. So we just, I drove my boys up and we went. The museum is great. The Hall of Fame is just so special if you're a baseball fan, but one of the things we found is that you get off the interstate and then it's about an hour drive on winding slow roads that you pass farms and you can't go fast.
And it's not in the hustle and bustle. And in some ways it really slowed us down. To sort of get in the rhythm of what baseball's about and this idea of like, you can't get there quickly and baseball's not a game. We talked about it being slow and boring. Um, that it just, it was, it just kind of slowed me down to a pace to receive baseball as the.
Pace of baseball is meant to be. If you are a baseball fan, do whatever you can to get out to Cooperstown. It's great. We have yet to go out during a Hall of Fame induction weekend, but if you go, it's pretty, it is a lot of traffic, but it's free. You can go to those, it's just in a field. Anybody can show up to, uh, the Baseball Hall of Fame induction weekend.
But the Baseball Hall of Fame, not only is it cool, uh, the actual museum and hall of fame that you pay admission to, but the whole town. Cooperstown, New York is amazing. Every single restaurant, every shop, I mean, they have like just a shop for minor league baseball caps. They have just one that's baseball bat.
You can get your name, uh, inscribed on a bat, a Louisville Slugger bat. And so if you ever get a chance to go, it is a baseball fan's Disney World. It is so much fun. Have you ever been there, Geoff?
[00:37:21] Geoff Holsclaw: I have not.
[00:37:22] J.R. Briggs: Oh, we, you gotta go, man. You gotta go.
[00:37:25] Geoff Holsclaw: well it, it kind of reminds me of, you know, it's just a, a normal everyday place. You have to just drive through a normal, everyday places to get there. I. And it reminds me of the, the, the great cloud of witnesses that we're supposed to keep before us. That there are people who have come before
[00:37:40] J.R. Briggs: Yeah. Good.
[00:37:41] Geoff Holsclaw: done great things, but they've also kind of suffered through all the things that, that we mentioned here. And I think it, it kind of is, you know, it's telling the story. I. Not of just baseball, but we spiritually need to be good at, at telling the, our stories spiritually to our children and grandchildren, but also asking other people's stories, our elders, those who've gone before us, and listening to how is it that God's worked in your life?
How did you discern these things in your life? Why did you make these decisions to, to do this? And to that, um, how did you get through that tough time, uh, when you were in that slump, otherwise known as, you know, you lost a child unexpectedly, or you know, you lost your job and had to relocate. Like, how did you.
The routines, you know, and just listening to our elders and getting those stories. And so that's what the, the Hall of Fame, uh, do we have a spiritual hall of fame that we're regularly visiting? 'cause that'll be good for our souls.
[00:38:28] J.R. Briggs: All right, like Hebrews 11 is referred to right as the Faith Hall of Fame, and so it is so cool. It was so fun. My kids were little, they're older now, they're teenagers, but when they were little walking through and be like, Hey, let me tell you about this guy Mike Schmidt. You know, let me tell you how great this picture was.
Let me, oh, he was a. Oh, Joe DiMaggio. Let me tell you about how great Joe DiMaggio was. You know, and it was just, oh, Bob Gibson. This guy was an amazing pitcher, and it was so fun. Just telling those stories and seeing my sons fall in love with baseball was really an unbelievable experience as a dad and as a baseball fan.
So I'm so glad you picked up on that. But that idea of the, the Hall of Fame is just, yeah, it's the heart of, I'm not saying it's, I'm not saying it's God's game. It's pretty close. It is pretty close.
[00:39:18] Geoff Holsclaw: It's the only game we're trying to get home. So that's, uh, why baseball is a perfect metaphor for spiritual information. Well, thanks for, uh, responding to my, uh, text yesterday. I'm glad we could work this out. We actually had a lot more to say than I thought. I thought we'd just go on for maybe 15, 20 minutes.
Now we're up to 40 minutes, but, uh, thank you so much, J.R..
[00:39:35] J.R. Briggs: Oh, this was so fun. What an invitation. Uh, and go Phils. Go Phils. This is our year.
[00:39:40] Geoff Holsclaw: Go Cubs, and if the Cubs stink, then maybe I'll root for the Giants. But, uh, thanks so much. And please, uh, if you're, please share this around to your baseball fans, uh, and drop in the comments wherever you see this. What are the other, what would you add to why baseball, uh, is the best sport for our spiritual formation?
Thanks again, J.R..
[00:39:58] J.R. Briggs: Thanks for having me.
Introduction and Guest Introduction
[00:00:14] Geoff Holsclaw: What does baseball have to do with spiritual formation? It is opening day for baseball today, and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna get my good friend J.R. Briggs on to talk about spiritual formation in baseball. I just reached out to him like yesterday. I, I was like, Hey, I. We gotta do this podcast episode for opening day.
He said Okay. I didn't even like write down his bio to introduce him 'cause I usually introduce my guests 'cause I'm such a professional but not today. So J.R. Could you just introduce yourself briefly, who you are and what you do, and then we're gonna be off and running and talking about the top 10 reasons why baseball is like the journey of spiritual formation.
Who are you?
[00:00:53] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, man. Thanks Geoff. Good to be with you all. And, um, yeah. So I am a, a husband, I'm a father, I'm a church planter. Uh, and now I am the founding director of an organization called Kairos Partnerships that helps leaders through coaching, consulting, spiritual formation. And I'm also a baseball fan, which is why when you reached out, Geoff, I'm like, heck yes, we have to do this.
This would be great. So, looking forward to this conversation.
Memorable Baseball Experiences
[00:01:19] Geoff Holsclaw: So for a little bit of context, uh, of our kind of immediate situation is J.R. Maybe, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago was in Chicago. When I was in Chicago, uh, doing I think a genesis church planning training. And then, and I spoke into it just a little bit and I think Sid was helping out with it a little bit more.
And then you were, I don't even know what happened. You're like, Hey. Geoff, we're going to Wrigley tonight. I was like, okay. And then you had tickets to the, the bleachers before they were renovated? They were a little less, uh, they're pretty swanky right now, like the post, uh, 20 14, 20 15, uh, this was before the Cubs won the World Series and you were like, let's go.
And I'd never been to the bleachers. We'd always sat up in the stands,
[00:02:01] J.R. Briggs: Yeah.
[00:02:02] Geoff Holsclaw: teeths in the upper deck. So what was your first experience there? The bleachers,
[00:02:07] J.R. Briggs: Well, I, and I've. Yes, I, and I'm not a, I'm not a Cubs fan, but I'm a baseball fan and I've loved my time going to Wrigley and like you, I've just sat in the main, the main stands, but I've always wanted to sit in the bleachers and people said it's a completely different experience technically, even though I was helping out with that church planter training with you all.
I was technically on sabbatical, and so part of the emphasis of my sabbatical was to go to. Several major and minor league baseball stadiums and games with my family or by myself. And so if I'm in a new city, I'm going, Hey, let's, let's, let's hit a place, you know, let's, let's go to a game. You're a big baseball fan, you're a Cubs fan.
And I said, let's do it. You hooked us up with some great parking, a friend of a friend at some church I remember,
[00:02:54] Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, that's right. Okay.
[00:02:55] J.R. Briggs: yeah, and then we were in left center field. I just remember thinking this is an amazing way to spend a sabbatical night with a good dude and great food, and great drink and great game in a great stadium.
It was amazing. And if I remember right, Geoff. They hadn't won the World Series, but I think either the night before our night or the next night, they had clinched a playoff spot. I think this was the year before they won the World Series. So the energy, yeah, the energy was just so palpable because it was the first time the Cubs had clenched in a long time.
So what do you remember from that time?
Spiritual Formation and Baseball
[00:03:32] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, I remember, so we had been, and this actually does fit into our spiritual formation kind of church thing, because I'd been to Wrigley and other baseball, uh, stadiums, like in the, you know, where you pay and you have your seat, it's an assigned seat, and you kind of shuffle past some people and they're all there for their thing.
And then you're there for your thing and you have the three people you came with and you know, and you kind of ignore people except for when you pass beer or hot dogs down. Right? But. That's kind of the typical experience in the regular seating, but in the bleachers it's kind of like there's this like, total change and tell me what you experience.
Like, oh, we're all family, we're all in this together. There's not really assigned seating. You kind of just find, and it's just a bench. It's like old school, like benches, like at a high school game or something like that where the stadium seating and you just show up and you're kind of squeaking by and you're squeezing butts in and um, and so that, and, and then you're kind of taunting the other teams outfielders.
[00:04:23] J.R. Briggs: The left fielder we were.
[00:04:25] Geoff Holsclaw: And then it's kind of like the right, uh, you kind of are taunting the other, so we were in left field and then the right field, and you're chanting from right field to left field. So it was this totally different crowd communal experience, which I was not expecting.
[00:04:39] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, and I'm not a Cubs fan, but that night you better believe I was a Cubs fan and felt fully embraced into the Cubs family. It was so fun. There's no way I was gonna root against the Cubs, if I remember right. I think it was the Brewers and, and, uh, just. It was so, yeah, family was the word that comes to mind when I think about that experience.
Ho home runs extra, base hits. You're a high FIV and you're hugging strangers around you. It's a different experience. I now understood when people said, oh, the bleachers are like watching a different C, it's a different Cubs experience. Didn't really get it until that night, and I'm not sure I wanna sit in the regular stands anymore.
It was so much fun.
[00:05:18] Geoff Holsclaw: have recently, but yeah, we gotta go back. Um, and this will go into some of our 10 reasons why baseball, uh, connects with spiritual formation. But there is, uh, just for those of you who don't know, at Wrigley Field, there's a tradition where if the opposing team hits a home run into the bleachers, you throw the ball back.
That is not a souvenir. You keep, you throw it back. And so that was kind of fun where you. You
[00:05:40] J.R. Briggs: Yes, and remember the cup snake. The cup snake was super long, and we're
[00:05:45] Geoff Holsclaw: Oh, yeah. So you get these giant beer cups and then like when you're done, you, you put it in a giant
[00:05:50] J.R. Briggs: hundreds and hundreds of cups that you're just helping people add to it and move it around. It looks like a giant snake. I.
[00:05:56] Geoff Holsclaw: So this isn't a top 10, but this is like 10 reasons. I think we have 10. I might have miscounted. So we're gonna do like five. And then I want to hear, uh, one of your favorite baseball memories. Mine is, is kind of embarrassing. It's not actually a favorite, it's just one of the most impactful. Um, and then we'll finish off the fir the last, so.
We kind of hinted on it. I'm gonna steal the first one. Why is baseball so pertinent to spiritual formation? Because the whole point of the game is you're trying to get back home. You start at home, you try to do some things, and you have to run around the base as you go through the course of your life, but you're trying to get back home and you have a family cheering you on and helping you out as best as they can.
But it's the same spiritual formation, discipleship life with God is that we're trying to come back home. We're entering into a new family. Father God is calling us home, brother Jesus is cheering us on and the spirit is empowering us as we go. And so that's why baseball is the greatest example of sports for our spiritual formation.
What do you think?
[00:06:55] J.R. Briggs: Yes. Actually I wrote about this in, in one of my books In the
[00:06:58] Geoff Holsclaw: I know you,
[00:06:59] J.R. Briggs: about joy.
[00:07:00] Geoff Holsclaw: that from you when we were sitting in the stands.
[00:07:02] J.R. Briggs: no, it was, it's one of the things I love about About it is I heard about a guy, I don't even remember his name, and I think I quoted him in the book about he actually collected walk-off home runs. Pictures of them.
Because when you look at joy of all these people who are waiting at home for their teammate to circle third and head for home, and some of those pictures, you could just do a Google search for walk-off home runs. And the joy of these, these grownups acting like little kids, like they're back in little league and just sometimes it's like almost.
Brings me to tears of like, that's the father when we come back home. Like there's joy in heaven. You know, when even one sinner repent, as Jesus says, there's joy in heaven. And that idea of waiting around home plate and dousing them with food or dumping, you know, pieces of gum or dumping, you know, the seeds on their head or whatever it might be like that is so redemptive.
So I'm so glad you started with that one. I totally agree.
[00:08:02] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, so it was like the prodigal son coming back home. There's a great celebration. There's a feast, there's a festival. You start singing, there's music, there's anthems. So for those of you who don't know, who don't follow baseball, a walk off home run effectively ends the game and the team that hit it wins.
And so since, and the runner has to go around the bases, but since the game is effectively over, the whole team runs out and waits for them at home plate for them to return home, to end the game with a victory. Okay, so not as happy.
The Role of Failure in Baseball and Spirituality
[00:08:31] Geoff Holsclaw: But it's still very connected and, and you have a lot to say about this, I know, is that baseball actually, uh, has built into it a lot of failure.
Now, why does failure, uh, what does that have to do with baseball, but also spiritual formation?
[00:08:47] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, the idea of grace, right? Like we,
[00:08:49] Geoff Holsclaw: And you wrote a book about this so you know, you could promote the book. That's okay.
[00:08:53] J.R. Briggs: well, but just the, we've all experienced failure, but like what does it mean to live a life where we actually learn from our failures and there's redemption and grace in the midst of it? And so, I mean, just you and I, I think we even talked about it that night in the bleachers, Geoff, but the idea that like if you fail only. Seven out of 10 times at bat. You do that over your career. You're in the Hall of Fame, you have a 300 career batting average, and only one or two people in history have averaged only failing, failing six out of 10 times. On average throughout their career. That's crazy. Any other field, business, education, whatever, like there's no way anybody would do that.
But that's the idea of failure and what do we, how do we learn from failure? And when a player's going over 30. And trying to get out of a slump. Like what do you, what do you do in that? How do you encourage your teammates, right? And so this idea of like, we are failures, right? That's the idea of confession and repentance is we start by admitting we are failures and that we can't save ourselves and there's something greater than us that will save us.
And so that idea of not flaunting our failure, not falling into despair, but of realizing our admission of our failure through confession and repentance is what? Ushers us in to experience that grace and mercy of Jesus that's available to us. So what about you? How, how have you seen this idea of failure and spiritual formation?
[00:10:18] Geoff Holsclaw: you just. Like now that we're like talking about it. So, um, a 70% failure rate is considered successful. I was just thinking through TRO and some other, the, the baby watcher kind of neuroscientists and they talk about attunement and relational attunement and they say that we are misattuned with people 70% of the
[00:10:38] J.R. Briggs: Fascinating.
[00:10:40] Geoff Holsclaw: and that, that, that is not a problem.
What is the problem is when you don't have the repairs. And so there, you know, that we're, we're rupture sounds very extreme right, but we're misattuned and then the whole process of a good relationship is being able to come back on the same page and become attuned and so, so yeah, we're out of tune with people, you know, a lot of the majority of the time.
And then what? And then the Christian life, I think in the spiritual practices, forget. Like that. You say confession, forgiveness, uh, repentance, but also, you know, seeking love and good works and things is that repair process.
[00:11:09] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, that's good.
[00:11:11] Geoff Holsclaw: we're just continually working on that and you can't take that failure to heart.
Um, you just have to keep going. You just have to keep showing up.
[00:11:17] J.R. Briggs: Yeah.
[00:11:18] Geoff Holsclaw: Um, these, again, these are not in order. If I spent more time, I like would've built a thematic kind of thing 'cause I love those logical, linear things. But another one. Okay. And this was me growing up 'cause I played baseball, but it was, for me, it was so boring. It was so boring. I didn't, my parents made me play baseball in the spring just to get me outta the house and make me run
[00:11:38] J.R. Briggs: Is that right?
[00:11:39] Geoff Holsclaw: much, I was much more of the fall soccer, like we played in California. It was. Soccer in the fall, baseball in the spring. But I did not like baseball. It was so boring, so much standing around, unless you're the pitcher, I guess.
Uh, and, and I hated being the catcher, but it was so boring. And people say that to you a lot like, oh, if you know, it's so boring. What would you say to those who say that baseball is boring and how does it connect to our spiritual life?
The Slow Pace of Baseball and Spiritual Life
[00:12:00] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, I actually, uh, jolt them a little bit. When they say, it's so boring, they're expecting me to say, no, it's not. It's so exciting. I go, you're right, it is. And they're like, what? Why do you like it? And I say, because so much of life, even the Christian life is not a highlight reel of fireworks all the time.
It's instead life faithful. Life and faithful life in the kingdom is just faithfully living into the everyday ordinary elements of life. Inviting Jesus into those. And so is there a walk off home run? Yes. Are there double plays and you know, great hits of course, but that's just a fraction of the time that's there.
So much of it is showing up, being a good teammate, cheering your teammates on. And I think so much of life is that of just like I'm going to faithfully fulfill my responsibilities and my role in what I'm doing most of my life. And your life, Geoff and everyone else listening is not a highlight reel. It is just faithfully learning to plot through and trust Jesus in the everyday ordinary moments of our lives.
And so, yeah, to me that is what makes it. Somewhat boring, and I put that in air quotes, boring. But also before we were recording, um, before we press record, I, I mentioned like during sabbatical. That was one of the main reasons because I'm a type A driven person. I need governors put on me to make sure that I don't exceed certain speeds.
And baseball makes me go, I'm not in a rush. Just enter into the flow of this game. And that quote unquote, boringness actually helps slow me down. And it's good for my soul, right? Like the speed of godliness is slow. And so if I can just enter into that slow pace in a world that's so frenetic and fast, I think baseball, they're trying to speed it up with the pitch clock as we know.
But. It actually is one of the few spaces in our lives where it actually slowing down in the sport is can be a superpower or can be so rare to rise above the noise of everything being faster, better, louder, busier. And so that's why I like it. And, uh. That's what my wife says. She's like, I like going to games.
I don't like watching 'em on tv 'cause they're too boring on tv. And I say, okay. But on a good Saturday afternoon, it's just good to, preferably in person. But even listening to it on the radio slows me down when I'm in the car.
[00:14:25] Geoff Holsclaw: Oh yeah, for sure. Many years. I listened to Ron Santon with Pat Hughes
[00:14:29] J.R. Briggs: That's right. Yeah.
[00:14:30] Geoff Holsclaw: on the WGN Network. Um, I forget what the radio station was back then. Um, but yeah, just the, the slow, the monotony of it. Um, and in a sense of routine, we're gonna get into the routines, uh, uh, as one of our other points, but, um. I think it's, it's kind of this, especially if you play it, but even when you're, you're kind of watching is there's this combination of it being slow and boring, but you also have to pay attention. Uh, and of course for legal reasons, you know, they extended the nets on first base and second and third base for foul balls and things like that.
But, you know, but also for the players, you know. Nothing's happening and anything could happen and you need to be ready. And so there is this combination of attentiveness, you know, 'cause
[00:15:13] J.R. Briggs: I like that. Yeah.
[00:15:15] Geoff Holsclaw: do talk about watchfulness and attentiveness as like kind of these key things.
[00:15:19] J.R. Briggs: Yeah. And even though it's quote unquote boring and slow, but of, of at the same time. Yeah. Like the spirit can do anything at any time. And so that idea of watchfulness and attentiveness, I'm so glad you brought that in. It has to be both at the same time. That's really good.
'cause one Aaron foul ball, if I'm not looking I might get clunked cl clunked in the head, you know? So That's a great point, Geoff.
[00:15:40] Geoff Holsclaw: Or that broken bat spinning off into the stands. Man, you gotta be ready.
Spring: A Time of Renewal in Baseball and Faith
[00:15:44] Geoff Holsclaw: So, uh, the last one before we have our seventh inning stretch is, uh, the spring, the spring of new life. So every spring, baseball starts over. Every team has a winning chance. All your, your rookies and your call-ups, you know, and you're giving someone a chance.
Uh, everyone is healthy usually. Um, that there's this, it's like the only sport where there's this combination of the season starting, at least in the Northern hemisphere and, you know, work. Getting out of the cold, we're getting out of the snow, we're getting out of the rain. Spring has sprung, new life is here.
So it's kind of that resurrection, uh, moment that I know, you know, baseball's on the, on the television. You know, I also have to think about yard work, which is not always my favorite, but it's the new life. I love it.
[00:16:28] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, no, totally agree. I love that. We practice, uh, lent and then Easter, uh, resurrection Sunday, sort of as the weather's turning in the Northern Hemisphere. And then the other side too. The World Series ends, right when it's. Getting colder, right? So it's a little bit of a sort of rising up and then and sort of ending at the same time.
And so yeah. What is it? Hope Spring's eternal. Everyone thinks their team during spring training is gonna win the World Series and that is a palpable hope around every single club, major League Baseball Club. They feel that hope this could be our year, you know? And I think there's something powerful to that.
[00:17:04] Geoff Holsclaw: last year for U Cubs fans. You know, this, our, our hope lasted about three innings until Justin Steele, our ace pitcher on a routine kind of, uh, ground ball over to first base, like. Pulled an, I forget, a hammy or I rolled an ankle. It was, and he was out for half the season. It was like so heartbreaking.
I was such a bummer. Okay, so that was the first top five. We're gonna interrupt this.
Personal Baseball Memories
[00:17:27] Geoff Holsclaw: What is one of your most memorable or crazy baseball in a stadium experiences? I.
[00:17:33] J.R. Briggs: Yeah. Well, I'm a big Phillies fan because I'm here in the Philadelphia area, and I don't even, you may, you may not know this Geoff, but I was asked to actually be the Phillies chaplain a few years ago, and, uh, just out of schedule, had to turn it down, but talk about spiritual formation and baseball matching together.
That would've been.
[00:17:50] Geoff Holsclaw: have Kyle Schwarber over there. Come on, you
[00:17:53] J.R. Briggs: That would've been really fun. That would've been really fun. But, um, but I actually, it's a long story, but I had a friend call me when the Phillies were in the World Series in 2022 against the Astros, and I love going to Citizens Bank Park, the home of the Philadelphia Phillies, and he said, Hey, I have a free World Series ticket.
If you'd like to sit next to me, I would love to have you. And I said, let me pray about the yes, yes, of course. And, uh, so we did it and it was great. I mean, amazing to be there for World Series. I mean, so amped up. The only problem was, Geoff, that was the day that the Astros in Game four through a combined no-hitter.
Against the Phillies in the World Series. So other than the starting lineups, there literally was no other reason for us to use our rally towels that were given out to us, to every fan when they walked in. It was brutal of like so grateful to go to the World Series. That is a hot ticket in Philly.
Everybody wants it. Very expensive. I got it free from a friend and nothing to cheer for. So that is, that is my, that is my historic, meaningful, memorable, but devastating. World Series moment. How about you? You have
[00:19:05] Geoff Holsclaw: So I was, uh, young.
A Memorable First Baseball Game
[00:19:08] Geoff Holsclaw: First time I went to a baseball game, the San Francisco Giants in the old candlestick, uh, park where the 49 ERs and the Giants used to both, uh, play at way back in the day. And, um, I was there. This was Ken Griffey J.R.'s rookie year.
[00:19:26] J.R. Briggs: Wow.
[00:19:28] Geoff Holsclaw: I had the new, um, upper deck baseball line, like it was this new line.
I had his rookie card,
[00:19:36] J.R. Briggs: Wow.
[00:19:38] Geoff Holsclaw: I was like a giant fan. He was playing with the
[00:19:40] J.R. Briggs: can picture that card.
[00:19:41] Geoff Holsclaw: there. I don't even know how, I don't even know how this like got scheduled. I'm just like, you know, you're a little kid. You just get shuffled around, right? We're at this baseball game. So, uh, okay.
Not, I'm trying not to share too much for especially the female listeners, but, um, you know, I'm a guy, I've peed in urinals as a kid before, but you go to a baseball stadium, I'm a little kid. I had to pee. I've never peed in basically a giant trough. It's an open
[00:20:09] J.R. Briggs: The old trough.
[00:20:10] Geoff Holsclaw: the guys know what you're, what, you know, this giant, and I, I got this
[00:20:15] J.R. Briggs: Stage fright.
[00:20:17] Geoff Holsclaw: Yes, that is what
[00:20:18] J.R. Briggs: fright. Yeah.
[00:20:20] Geoff Holsclaw: what happened. So I go in, I go out, nothing has changed. I waited out two more innings and I am dying. I was like, I guess I'm just gonna have to figure. So I go back in. I finally, you know, I'm able to work things out. The whole stadium erupts. Ken Griffey J.R..
Hit a home run and I was in the bathroom for the second time and I missed the home run, and I had his rookie card. It was so horrible.
[00:20:52] J.R. Briggs: That is a great story.
[00:20:54] Geoff Holsclaw: I don't know how to make that into a spiritual formation lesson, but it was, that was heartbreaking. Okay, so back to the, the top 10 reasons. Second, or number six.
Teamwork and Spiritual Formation
[00:21:05] Geoff Holsclaw: Teamwork. How does teamwork exemplify our life and spiritual formation from
[00:21:11] J.R. Briggs: It's fascinating 'cause baseball, you know, it's not like basketball where like everybody is on the field at the same time doing, doing their role. Like, yes, of course when you're on defense, when you're out in the field, but when you're a batter, you're the only one in. The batter's box. So you're doing it for yourself, but you're doing it for your team together.
But out in the field, if one person makes an error, it lets down everybody else. And in baseball, each one of those errors adds up. It's so important. It's not like in the NBA with 130 points scored each night could be one, nothing. And that error makes a difference. But the idea of teammates. How often do you hear a post-game interview where they say, man, my teammates picked me up.
Or, when I failed, they came and they, they delivered even though I, I wasn't doing so well or the encouragement that my hitting coach came over and whispered something to me, so much of it is mental, right? What is 90% of it is mental, the other half is physical, said Yogi Berra. And I just think that idea of like, we've got to be, you know, relief pitchers.
How many pitchers go the full nine innings anymore? Hardly ever like they used to do in the sixties and the seventies. And so this idea of like, we need everybody involved. Uh, one of my favorite stories with the Phillies this past year is actually not our catcher, although JT Ro Mito is my favorite Phillies player.
It's the backup catcher, and Stubbs is his name. And, uh, everybody loves Stubby and the reason being is he hardly plays, but he is the heart and soul of the team. And so Stubbs, anytime he would, uh, cheer for his teammates or, um, he, he was in charge of the clubhouse music mix. And he was like the dj and everyone said like, Stubbs is our, is our favorite guy on the team.
And so that to me is just an example of how important, um, Garrett Stubbs was to the team. And we, we need everybody involved, everybody involved, teammates, you've gotta be able to work with your teammates, or baseball does not work.
[00:23:13] Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, for sure.
The Importance of Routines
[00:23:14] Geoff Holsclaw: And then it's similar to that is, uh, routines is so, uh, number, number seven is the routines of baseball. And it kind of goes back to it being boring. And the failure is that, uh, and the mindfulness is that I think the mindset of a baseball player, just because there is so much downtime, um, that.
And, and people getting called off the bench and designated hitters, you know, and people are relief pitchers like you, you just have to be ready, but you're also waiting. And then the routines is kind of, I think what, what bridges that, the readiness and the waiting is your routines. The preparation routines, the routines in between innings.
Um, taking some batting practice, um, doing your, your outfield, infield, uh, practice, even doing your bunting routines and uh, reviewing the signs and things like always. It's all the stuff that you do in advance. And I, and I know, um, all sports kind of have that for sure, but it, it does seem that baseball has this special kind of place, you know, and you could even call them rituals, right?
A lot of rituals. And, and there's a lot of superstition. I, I know other sports have superstition, but I think baseball players have quite a bit of superstition that's related to their routines. If I'm in a slump, uh, I gotta change something. If I'm not, if I'm, you know, on a hot streak, then we gotta keep everything the same and the.
You know, and I think there is something, uh, a little bit about that, uh, for our spiritual life.
[00:24:34] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, for sure. I mean, to me, when I think about this idea of routines and rhythms. Some players like to get there really early, you know, and they say, I'm gonna jog at, you know, 1 55 for a four o'clock game, you know, and then I come back and do 10 minutes of this, and I've always, I'm stretching and doing this, taking 200 cuts in the batting cage before we get started.
To me, that's, those are spiritual disciplines and spiritual practices that keep us grounded. Right? And they may not do it for spiritual reasons, but I think about the idea of routines, like almost like a rule of life. You know, they wouldn't call it that, but baseball players have a rule of life. What they will eat, when they will stretch, when they will even talk to their teammates.
Long toss, short toss, warm up in the bullpen before a game if you're a starting pitcher. So that idea of spiritual disciplines or spiritual habits, um, a rule of life. So important to our formation. We don't just show up and just say like, Hey, I'm gonna do this thing. There are just healthy, grounding spiritual disciplines to engage in that don't, it doesn't earn us grace, which is an oxymoron.
It actually opens our lives up to be used more by God and to experience his grace in our lives that much more. And so. The Gospel's, uh, not against work, it's against earning as Dallas Willard says. And so, but we put ourselves in a position by engaging in spiritual disciplines or rule of life, so that's what I, I love those.
Yeah.
[00:26:02] Geoff Holsclaw: It's such a long season that you need those routines that even when you're feeling out of it, your whole team's on a losing streak or you are like, those routines kind of just help bridge that. It's just the length of the season. Um, whereas other sports, you know, uh, it it's, it's pretty different.
Um, so, okay.
Traditions in Baseball and Faith
[00:26:21] Geoff Holsclaw: So now we're gonna kind of get a little bit more meta, uh, but tell us about the traditions of baseball. How is that like spiritual formation for our number eight reason?
[00:26:32] J.R. Briggs: yeah. So the idea of traditions I, you know. Some baseball stadiums have been called cathedrals, which I find it very interesting. In fact, there's a book called Green Cathedrals on Twitter. There was a, uh, Twitter handle that I followed, uh, for a while called um, or X or whatever it's called now, cathedrals of Baseball.
And it just featured old photographs of. Major league baseball stadiums and, but so there's traditions of uniform and logo and um, even the unwritten rules of baseball and how they exist. Uh, I just noticed that, uh, Comerica Park, where the Tigers play, used to have a strip since it's the beginning from the pitchers mound to home plate, like a, a dirt strip.
And it was used to do that in old stadiums. It's the only one now. This year they just decided to make it all grass. There's no strip anymore. Yes,
[00:27:21] Geoff Holsclaw: rid of it.
[00:27:22] J.R. Briggs: And everyone's up in arms. Why? Because tradition matters in baseball, and that's why people love a field of dreams and the natural and all these things because tradition, we think about, oh, my grandfather took me to my to to a game when I was a kid.
Or you were a kid at Candlestick Park. Like, or throwing. The ball playing catch in the backyard with dad. Like these are just the tradition of that, of going, man, now I bring my kids to games and maybe one day I'll bring my, my grandkids to games. Those sorts of things is why tradition, I think of all of the sports tradition matters the most with baseball because it's so grounds us in relationship and nostalgia.
Of previous generations and connects us to future generations. And I think the same thing with the church. If we think that Christianity was invented in 1983, uh, because we sing songs or do things that have only been quote unquote invented or done since 1983, we miss out on the rich traditions of the shoulders of men and women who we stand upon, who have gone before us, and great church fathers and mothers, and learning from the Desert Fathers and the reformers enriches our faith.
I. Even more just like we love reading about baseball history helps us love baseball present and baseball future even more.
[00:28:39] Geoff Holsclaw: It doesn't mean that there's not open innovation. You know, there's like a
[00:28:43] J.R. Briggs: Yeah.
[00:28:44] Geoff Holsclaw: movement to statistics and, you know, launch angle a couple years ago and you know, strikeouts on base percentage. You know, there's a whole, uh, Moneyball.
[00:28:55] J.R. Briggs: Even robo Umps that they're testing out, right? I mean that's, that's weird. Robo Umps where they're like, yeah, trying to figure out like you can, you can now challenge if it's a ball or a strike now and you see it on the video board, like that is crazy to baseball purists.
[00:29:10] Geoff Holsclaw: But there is a sense though, 'cause in a lot of sports, um, especially football, especially basketball, it was when you, when you compare like the great teams of today to like. 20 and then certainly 30 years ago, everyone's like, the game is totally different now. The game, like basketball's a three point shooting, uh, the role of the big man, like all this, it's totally different now.
Mj, LeBron, blah, blah, blah, right? And then the role of, uh, offenses, uh, in football and the quarterback and all this stuff. Um, but baseball's not like it hasn't changed that much. Like you can, you know, like what, a hundred years ago they lowered the. The mound. And then, uh, and then certainly, you know, 60 years ago they integrated, uh, so they had the, the Negro leagues and the white leagues.
You know, so people are like, was Babe Ruth really? You know, playing against the best people, you know, that's so that's valid. But besides that, you're like, well, what Now we have a pitch clock.
[00:29:59] J.R. Briggs: Yeah. Yeah. We banned the shift. Right. But like there's
[00:30:03] Geoff Holsclaw: Which I'm a big fan
[00:30:04] J.R. Briggs: Yes, and, and there's some tweaks, but you're right. It has remained largely the same, just like. Christianity, right? Like it's a virgin birth. It's the good news of Jesus, the son of God who came, you know, who came down in our form, who died for us, not because of our works.
I mean, the Christianity remains the same throughout history, but wrestling with the innovation piece is really important too, because, you know, some churches are, are like cutting edge, you know, 16, 34, you know, so this idea of like how, how do we. Meet people where they're at in the culture that they're in, while still having the beautiful tradition and rich history of our faith and baseball.
You know, Rob Manfred, the commissioners, trying to find where does that come into play of valuing history and tradition with innovation and change to meet the, the culture where it's at with baseball. Same thing with the church we're wrestling with, how do we do that faithfully?
[00:31:02] Geoff Holsclaw: Well, this goes into number nine then.
The Role of Minor Leagues in Development
[00:31:03] Geoff Holsclaw: I think I got a little outta order, but the innovation usually comes through the minor leagues. And so baseball has a very robust multi-leveled, leveled minor league system where they do try out some of these rule changes. They do try out some of these things, but what, how does, uh, the idea of a minor league, uh, kind of fit into our own spiritual lives?
[00:31:23] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, may, this may be my favorite of all of the ones that we've listed is this idea of the minor leagues, or what's called the farm system, right, of developing could be single aa, triple A, and then the majors, or even short season single A, and then single A double aa. But the idea of discipleship and the idea of.
We, we are developed. Um, you aren't just drafted and then you end up on a major league baseball roster and you thrive because so much of it is failure. It's learning to develop over time, develop our mechanics, develop our, uh, our batting stance, developing our speed and strength, uh, angles, um, rules, mental preparation.
And I think that's so important as we think about Second, second, Timothy two, two, and the things you've heard me say in the presence of many witnesses. Andrus, the reliable people who will teach others. Most minor league coaches are former players. Most minor league managers are former players. And this idea of passing on the tradition and doing it young and not just even developing your minor leagues and your farm system, but on top of that, um. They're trying to do a lot of youth development, right? A lot of inner city work. They're Major league baseball is pumping a lot of money into Little League now. Little League World Series is so fun to watch, but that development, you can't, baseball's too hard. You can't just decide at 18 years old, you're gonna start playing baseball and be really good and play in the majors when you're 20.
It's gotta be this development that happens over time. So this idea of dis discipleship and mentoring and building into the generation behind us, if you stop doing that in baseball. Stop developing the next generation of players. The game falls apart just like Christianity. We are one, uh, generation away from, from if we just refuse to disciple people entirely.
Christianity buckles, we, we, it depends upon discipleship in that. So, and I actually, as much as I love watching the Phillies and going to major league parks, we actually love going to Reding fight and fills, which Reding, Pennsylvania is about. An hour away from us and we love going. It's aa, they've been there since the sixties.
Mike Schmidt came up there, uh, when he was a teenager, and it is so fun to this day to do that. We love going. They're hustling, they're trying their best. They wanna make it to the next level. Um, they may not be able to field great or, you know, have the most impressive arms yet, but we love going. And part of the reason we love minor league baseball is the developmental aspect of it.
Christianity should always be in the developmental side of discipling people, especially the next generation.
[00:34:04] Geoff Holsclaw: We got, uh, several kids in our youth group who, uh, in the summers they work at the white caps, uh, stadium here in Grand Rapids, which
[00:34:11] J.R. Briggs: West Michigan. White calfs. Yeah. Yeah, baby.
[00:34:15] Geoff Holsclaw: And the, and the thing too is back to. Failure. Uh, and how do you deal with failure and learn a growth of failure? Is baseball's one of the only sports where you can make it to the major leagues and then go back to the minor leagues?
And most even the best players did that multiple times. Uh, they go in for a stint for part of a season and then they go back down to the minors ' cause they have to work on something. There's, whereas in other sports, you're kind of, you make it to the, the, the highest level and then you just stay there until you retire or you get.
You know, right. So there's this up and down and up and down, forward and back. And, and I think that's something for all of us to embrace. Like our life with Christ is not just a hundred percent movement forward all the time. Like we have lapses. We, we have to go back and relearn things again. We, we find out that we have weaknesses that we weren't aware of that we need to shore up.
[00:35:03] J.R. Briggs: Even rehab stints, right? You get injured, you go down to
[00:35:05] Geoff Holsclaw: yeah. You get injured. Yep.
[00:35:07] J.R. Briggs: and your confidence back before you come up to the Major League Club again.
[00:35:10] Geoff Holsclaw: That's, yeah. That, that could be a whole nother
[00:35:12] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, they could extra innings and then,
[00:35:15] Geoff Holsclaw: Is that purgatory, extra innings as purgatory. And we have the phantom base runner on second as a rule change. Alright.
The Journey to the Baseball Hall of Fame
[00:35:21] Geoff Holsclaw: Just to wrap this up then, and this kind of brings us back to point number one is that we're all trying to get back home.
As you had an experience just of going out to the baseball Hall of fame, uh, could you tell us just about where that is, uh, physically and how you got there and just kind of how it kind of pulled some of these things together?
[00:35:38] J.R. Briggs: Yeah, baseball Hall of Fame is in Cooperstown, New York, which is uh, in the middle of nowhere, and. From us. It's about, I think about a five hour drive. So we just, I drove my boys up and we went. The museum is great. The Hall of Fame is just so special if you're a baseball fan, but one of the things we found is that you get off the interstate and then it's about an hour drive on winding slow roads that you pass farms and you can't go fast.
And it's not in the hustle and bustle. And in some ways it really slowed us down. To sort of get in the rhythm of what baseball's about and this idea of like, you can't get there quickly and baseball's not a game. We talked about it being slow and boring. Um, that it just, it was, it just kind of slowed me down to a pace to receive baseball as the.
Pace of baseball is meant to be. If you are a baseball fan, do whatever you can to get out to Cooperstown. It's great. We have yet to go out during a Hall of Fame induction weekend, but if you go, it's pretty, it is a lot of traffic, but it's free. You can go to those, it's just in a field. Anybody can show up to, uh, the Baseball Hall of Fame induction weekend.
But the Baseball Hall of Fame, not only is it cool, uh, the actual museum and hall of fame that you pay admission to, but the whole town. Cooperstown, New York is amazing. Every single restaurant, every shop, I mean, they have like just a shop for minor league baseball caps. They have just one that's baseball bat.
You can get your name, uh, inscribed on a bat, a Louisville Slugger bat. And so if you ever get a chance to go, it is a baseball fan's Disney World. It is so much fun. Have you ever been there, Geoff?
[00:37:21] Geoff Holsclaw: I have not.
[00:37:22] J.R. Briggs: Oh, we, you gotta go, man. You gotta go.
[00:37:25] Geoff Holsclaw: well it, it kind of reminds me of, you know, it's just a, a normal everyday place. You have to just drive through a normal, everyday places to get there. I. And it reminds me of the, the, the great cloud of witnesses that we're supposed to keep before us. That there are people who have come before
[00:37:40] J.R. Briggs: Yeah. Good.
[00:37:41] Geoff Holsclaw: done great things, but they've also kind of suffered through all the things that, that we mentioned here. And I think it, it kind of is, you know, it's telling the story. I. Not of just baseball, but we spiritually need to be good at, at telling the, our stories spiritually to our children and grandchildren, but also asking other people's stories, our elders, those who've gone before us, and listening to how is it that God's worked in your life?
How did you discern these things in your life? Why did you make these decisions to, to do this? And to that, um, how did you get through that tough time, uh, when you were in that slump, otherwise known as, you know, you lost a child unexpectedly, or you know, you lost your job and had to relocate. Like, how did you.
The routines, you know, and just listening to our elders and getting those stories. And so that's what the, the Hall of Fame, uh, do we have a spiritual hall of fame that we're regularly visiting? 'cause that'll be good for our souls.
[00:38:28] J.R. Briggs: All right, like Hebrews 11 is referred to right as the Faith Hall of Fame, and so it is so cool. It was so fun. My kids were little, they're older now, they're teenagers, but when they were little walking through and be like, Hey, let me tell you about this guy Mike Schmidt. You know, let me tell you how great this picture was.
Let me, oh, he was a. Oh, Joe DiMaggio. Let me tell you about how great Joe DiMaggio was. You know, and it was just, oh, Bob Gibson. This guy was an amazing pitcher, and it was so fun. Just telling those stories and seeing my sons fall in love with baseball was really an unbelievable experience as a dad and as a baseball fan.
So I'm so glad you picked up on that. But that idea of the, the Hall of Fame is just, yeah, it's the heart of, I'm not saying it's, I'm not saying it's God's game. It's pretty close. It is pretty close.
[00:39:18] Geoff Holsclaw: It's the only game we're trying to get home. So that's, uh, why baseball is a perfect metaphor for spiritual information. Well, thanks for, uh, responding to my, uh, text yesterday. I'm glad we could work this out. We actually had a lot more to say than I thought. I thought we'd just go on for maybe 15, 20 minutes.
Now we're up to 40 minutes, but, uh, thank you so much, J.R..
[00:39:35] J.R. Briggs: Oh, this was so fun. What an invitation. Uh, and go Phils. Go Phils. This is our year.
[00:39:40] Geoff Holsclaw: Go Cubs, and if the Cubs stink, then maybe I'll root for the Giants. But, uh, thanks so much. And please, uh, if you're, please share this around to your baseball fans, uh, and drop in the comments wherever you see this. What are the other, what would you add to why baseball, uh, is the best sport for our spiritual formation?
Thanks again, J.R..
[00:39:58] J.R. Briggs: Thanks for having me.